Anniversary Rails

trentfromtoledo said:

1. Let's heart some specifics on what plays so bad? Saying that with no facts means very little. Especially since you said you are a low level player. Please also include the mechanics name that performed the work on the tables your are speaking of. I know how my rails play and installing the cushions properly/ doing the facing work is very very important.

2. Why would it surprise you that I would do what a customer asks me to or better yet: Pays me to? Like the OP (who is now rethinking this and thats great). I give customers options and they choose. I am not going to turn away a sale because a client does not want to spend the extra money. I also am not a firm believer in the amount of QUANTIFIABLE difference from my experience with using the modern cushions as a direct replacement<<<<---- what Brunswick will tell you when you call and ask what cushions to put on an Anniversary or Centennial or older GC.

3. Unless a customer PAYS me to do so, I do not like altering the Anniversary or Centennial restorations because I want them as close to all original as possible. Yup and as long as they still work properly: i even prefer the figure 8 nut plates on the bottoms of the rails.


As for the OP getting the railwork done, I am a bit confused why he is asking for other peoples info is he is that close to MG?? Should be a no brainer, even if it was more money. But, if he wants other peoples info, this is who I suggest: Jack Zimmerman aka BilliardMechanix (812) 756-2899.

Good luck to the OP!

TFT

p.s. I am not a firm believer that there are many people on the planet that 1 extra rail back and forth would make a difference to. Not to mention I have ever seen a new GC6 or Diamond do 5-6 rails back an forth lengthwise.

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To start out your customers who say they "play fine" with incorrect rubber may not know what a properly playing table plays like. I have walked down a line of Diamonds at tournaments and each table plays the same on 3 rail kicks, something that you dont see on Valleys and definitely wont see on GC's with the wrong rubber. The biggest issue when putting K55s on Monarch tables isnt that you shrink the playing field by 1/4", Im sure nobody can tell that the play field is a 1/4" small without measuring, its that the table loses its 2:1 ratio. It will no longer be twice as long as it is wide which is a big deal on every multi rail shot, the more rails the bigger the discrepancy. The other good reason to have the rails modified is that on old tables the pocket miters tend to not be very accurate. If you are going to build a truly "nice" playing table the pocket miters need to be fixed. Many people also consider a "nice" playing table to have current common pocket widths which is 4 1/2" now, not 5 1/4". When using the correct cushion for the table you generally maintain good speed,
I have seen K55s on GC's play very slow, 4 cushions up and down the table with Simonis 860 I would consider very slow, 4 1/2 I would consider normal, that way you still get 4-4 1/4 lengths when very humid and 4 3/4- 5 lengths when table is playing very fast. If your customers are happy with tables that wont take a shot with pace down the rail into a 5 1/4" bucket you are lucky, most players who know better expect to be able to make that hot on a 4 1/2" pocket properly set up. I think the bottom line for the OP depends on how he uses the table, occasional play on weekends and holidays with family and guests using the wrong cushions dont really matter. If he wants to practice to improve and shoot tournaments he will be happier spending the extra money and having the sub-rails modified for current profile cushions, correcting the pocket miters, and properly extending the sub-rails for tighter pockets.

P.S. Why did they quit making Monarch Superspeeds??? There sure seem to still be a lot of tables out there that have them.

I think Rexus said it best:

If calibrating the subrail for modern rubber only affects dimensions and has nothing to do with playability, why do mechanics perform the task?

Never said you should perform free work for customers.

Check out post #9 for some of the info you are asking about:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=513752

fastone371 said:

To start out your customers who say they "play fine" with incorrect rubber may not know what a properly playing table plays like. I have walked down a line of Diamonds at tournaments and each table plays the same on 3 rail kicks, something that you dont see on Valleys and definitely wont see on GC's with the wrong rubber. The biggest issue when putting K55s on Monarch tables isnt that you shrink the playing field by 1/4", Im sure nobody can tell that the play field is a 1/4" small without measuring, its that the table loses its 2:1 ratio. It will no longer be twice as long as it is wide which is a big deal on every multi rail shot, the more rails the bigger the discrepancy. The other good reason to have the rails modified is that on old tables the pocket miters tend to not be very accurate. If you are going to build a truly "nice" playing table the pocket miters need to be fixed. Many people also consider a "nice" playing table to have current common pocket widths which is 4 1/2" now, not 5 1/4". When using the correct cushion for the table you generally maintain good speed,
I have seen K55s on GC's play very slow, 4 cushions up and down the table with Simonis 860 I would consider very slow, 4 1/2 I would consider normal, that way you still get 4-4 1/4 lengths when very humid and 4 3/4- 5 lengths when table is playing very fast. If your customers are happy with tables that wont take a shot with pace down the rail into a 5 1/4" bucket you are lucky, most players who know better expect to be able to make that hot on a 4 1/2" pocket properly set up. I think the bottom line for the OP depends on how he uses the table, occasional play on weekends and holidays with family and guests using the wrong cushions dont really matter. If he wants to practice to improve and shoot tournaments he will be happier spending the extra money and having the sub-rails modified for current profile cushions, correcting the pocket miters, and properly extending the sub-rails for tighter pockets.

P.S. Why did they quit making Monarch Superspeeds??? There sure seem to still be a lot of tables out there that have them.

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Well thats great, back and forth 4-5 lengths consistently!! Banks are true and i can do my 3 railer I do on every table i set up. Yup, the Diamond system from brand to brand and even model to model can slightly vary...

Concerning the 5 1/4 " pocket. I have very very few people ever ask for that. DEANOC LOVES THOSE BUCKETS WITH BAD ANGLES!!!

4.5" corners at 141 sides at 5" at 102.

We are literally talking about 1/2 of a degree AT MOST of a difference in the subrail angle and 1/8" per rail. I would LOVE for someone to actually PROVE a quantifiable difference!!!

Why they stopped making the Monarchss = MORE MASS aka Rubber on the modern superspeed!!

TFT

pocket said:

I think Rexus said it best:

If calibrating the subrail for modern rubber only affects dimensions and has nothing to do with playability, why do mechanics perform the task?

Never said you should perform free work for customers.

Check out post #9 for some of the info you are asking about:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=513752

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So basically you dont know why it plays differently. You made statements that say otherwise, I understand that you do not know how or why the table plays bad.

Ask alll 5 of the best rail guys in the country and they all will tell you different subrail angles and who is right? I trust who I currently work with and a couple of others.

The Anniversary and GC4 subrails are within a half of a degree of one another!!!!

No one has been able to show facts of how one plays better than the other.
I am not buying any bull$hit that ANY Brunswick Superspeed Cushion gets 5-6 rails back and forth.... Brand new GC6 and blue label Diamonds dont get 5-6 rails!!! All of my restorations get 4-5 back an forth.....

This topic has been beaten to death and I know how a table should play. i also know who to call to have railwork of any sort done: Jack Z!!

I also sell new Brunswick GC6's , new Diamonds and new Rassons. Those are the best playing pool tables in the WORLD.

TFT

Ok Trent, you’re right. There’s no difference that can be discerned. Peace and love my man.

Out.

pocket said:

Ok Trent, you’re right. There’s no difference that can be discerned. Peace and love my man.

Out.

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1. I never said I was "right". You made claims and have nothing to back them up with.
2. I never said there was "no" difference. what I said is that no one has been abe to provide any quantifiable proof to what they are claiming to be facts. The closest thing to even a description of the difference was "5-6 table lengths".... Not the ball bites or hops or accepts english oddly.
3. Peace and CHICKEN GREASE!!!


TFT

trentfromtoledo said:

I never said there was "no" difference. what I said is that no one has been abe to provide any quantifiable proof to what they are claiming to be facts. The closest thing to even a description of the difference was "5-6 table lengths".... Not the ball bites or hops or accepts english oddly.

TFT

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Have you offered any quantifiable proof to anything that you have claimed?

The quantification that I offered was in table lengths. Of course, you called my claim bullshit...

I don't really care whether or not you believe what I say. I've got a lot more time and research into this work than you do... You regularly admit that rail modification is over your head, and you contract it out. You continue to insist that the difference is unnoticeable, which proves to me that you don't know what you are talking about.

Sub-rail modification is not just about adjusting the angle. It is mostly about cutting the height down to a consistent 1 11/16", which also affects the angle that is used. With the sub-rail at a consistent height, it makes for a much more consistent cushion installation, with a much tighter resultant tolerance on the nose height.

If a customer doesn't want to pay for the modification, so be it. I will explain the advantages and disadvantages, and let them decide.

For me personally, I would NEVER sell a Brunswick table without ensuring that it has been modified to properly accept a modern day K55 cushion. The fact that you do (regularly), says a lot about you.

Have you offered any quantifiable proof to anything that you have claimed?

The quantification that I offered was in table lengths. Of course, you called my claim bullshit...
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I am not the one saying there is a problem. YOU ARE, You cannot try and turn this around because all you could come up with is this 5-6 lengths stuff.

SHOW ME DONT TELL ME 5-6 lengths!!! New GC6's and New Diamonds do not get 5-6 table lengths. A video is easy to make.
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I don't really care whether or not you believe what I say. I've got a lot more time and research into this work than you do... You regularly admit that rail modification is over your head, and you contract it out. You continue to insist that the difference is unnoticeable, which proves to me that you don't know what you are talking about.

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YOU MUST BECAUSE YOU KEEP POSTING!! Just because I dont care to spend the time or money on something I can easily contract out. I never said it was "unnoticable" ..... Brunswick Superspeed = 63.75% of the ball baby!! You are not talking rocket science. As much as you say you have researched and know all of this stuff so well, then answer this for me: Why is it you cannot explain the difference in how the table actually plays and not just exaggerating that you are getting 5-6 rails back and forth????
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Sub-rail modification is not just about adjusting the angle. It is mostly about cutting the height down to a consistent 1 11/16", which also affects the angle that is used. With the sub-rail at a consistent height, it makes for a much more consistent cushion installation, with a much tighter resultant tolerance on the nose height.

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What about rails that are 1 3/4" thick?

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If a customer doesn't want to pay for the modification, so be it. I will explain the advantages and disadvantages, and let them decide.
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I do the exact same thing, I let the customer decide. We agree on something finally, but, you said this here in another gold crown thread very recently: "There is no direct replacement, if you want the table to be right. However, you can replace the Monarch cushions with a modern-day K55, without a whole lot of ill-effect. The nose height will be a little low, and the banks will be slightly short".....now you are screaming bloody murder that TrentfromToledo is out messin stuff up?? Seems very inconsistent to me from the quote

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For me personally, I would NEVER sell a Brunswick table without ensuring that it has been modified to properly accept a modern day K55 cushion. The fact that you do (regularly), says a lot about you.[/QUOTE]

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Since all my Brunswick Restorations are CUSTOM: as in I do not start work until a contract is in place and the deposit has been made, that really says something about my customers, seeing that they get to pick all the options. So at the end of the day, I run a business, busy as I want to be and i love it.

TFT

P.s. you have an uncanny ability of putting words in my mouth. I have not one time ever said any of this "was over my head"... If it is so "over my head" why is it that you can't seem to explain how they play so terribly. I am sure that your attempt with 5-6 lengths was not convincing at all. I have been very open about not wanting to invest the time or money into doing railwork. My business model works just great when i need the railwork done!!!

Read through all of my past posts.. You'll see that I have always maintained that you could replace Monarch cushions with modern K55 cushions, without much ill-effect.

However, if you want your table to be correct, the modification must be done. It is impossible to achieve a high level of consistency, without the modification. The original sub-rail thicknesses are all over the place, even on the same rail. And what about the rails that are bowed?

I bristle at you minimizing the benefits of the modification. It seems to me that you just don't get it.

Trent, perhaps you should invest the time to learn the process so you can add it to your list of services offered and can determine for yourself if the procedure is a worthwhile endeavor. Just like you are asking for concrete proof subrail mods make the table play properly, can you provide concrete proof tables that do not have subrails modified play properly? Stating your customers are happy is not proof. I am a mid level player and can definitely tell the difference between a properly setup table and a table that has not been properly setup. I do not have the video evidence you are seeking but all I can say is poorly setup rails are not as responsive, bank poorly and inaccurately and some result in ball hop. RKC even pointed out the difference between a Red Label Diamond and a Blue Label Diamond being the subrail calibration. Red Labels are notorious for banking short. Changing the subrail angle fixed the issue. There must be something to it.

Please excuse the crooked picture and stroke. Gold Crown I rails have been properly calibrated for Diamond Black rubber (K55 profile) by Steve Leistikow (Tablemechanic on AZB). Five rails achieved at about 85% stroke.

https://youtu.be/yQXiKMzH0jo

bradsh98 said:

Read through all of my past posts.. You'll see that I have always maintained that you could replace Monarch cushions with modern K55 cushions, without much ill-effect.

However, if you want your table to be correct, the modification must be done. It is impossible to achieve a high level of consistency, without the modification. The original sub-rail thicknesses are all over the place, even on the same rail. And what about the rails that are bowed?

I bristle at you minimizing the benefits of the modification. It seems to me that you just don't get it.

Click to expand...

I went to college and I ALWAYS had to be able to explain why, not just throw out an answer. I do have some proof and I will use the FACT that I get 4-5 rails back and forth using the new Superspeeds on the unmodified subrails.

So did I prove anything using your "back and forth method" ?? Nope.

TFT

rexus31 said:

Trent, perhaps you should invest the time to learn the process so you can add it to your list of services offered and can determine for yourself if the procedure is a worthwhile endeavor. Just like you are asking for concrete proof subrail mods make the table play properly, can you provide concrete proof tables that do not have subrails modified play properly? Stating your customers are happy is not proof. I am a mid level player and can definitely tell the difference between a properly setup table and a table that has not been properly setup. I do not have the video evidence you are seeking but all I can say is poorly setup rails are not as responsive, bank poorly and inaccurately and some result in ball hop. RKC even pointed out the difference between a Red Label Diamond and a Blue Label Diamond being the subrail calibration. Red Labels are notorious for banking short. Changing the subrail angle fixed the issue. There must be something to it.

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Great Video. I could probably force more than 4-5, but, my stroke is just not that good when trying to beat a ball into the rail. I cannot say I would ever need anymore table lengths than that. In fact I am not sure how that even comes into play with bankin or kickin because I would never be hitting it that hard. I do understand for those many rail banks and kiks you need the speed.

For how little I get the request for railwork like this, it is just not worth it $$$$ & time. 5-6 sets of rails in 7 years?? I like Jack Z's work and learn new stuff from him every time I visit him. Not to mention the HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS I have chatted with RKC about this exact topic.

Weirdest part is: Not one person has ever been able to explain or demonstrate exactly how all the math works and an actual explanation of how all of this relates to speed, spin and table geometry.

I know Bradshaw knows his shit. Not tryin to bash him or fight about this.
He and I agree that Brunswick Superspeeds can be used "without much ill-effect" ... IMO Anyone who could detect any oddities with how it banks, kicks and the tables general speed: can easily adjust to the table. Just like you have to from GC's to Diamond to Rassons, they all play a bit differently. All sports have this common bond: playing conditions will be different some how from place to place. To end this all: Generally when someone is calling me and they want something that plays as close to "perfect" as possible: I suggest they buy a GC6, Diamond or Rasson!
As for GC restorations I prefer 3's and 4's to avoid all this rail shit....

I am headed to Columbus to take apart my last Anniversary restoration, client is movin and I am packing it up for him. They are Jack Z rebuilt rails and play EXCELLENT. With out his work the table would have played just a lil below excellent and I would call it GOOD! Client actually got the railwork included because the rails were stapled out pretty bad, cant always tell until you get the table back to the shop and strip the railcloths off. Everyone have a great day!!

TFT

TFT

rexus31 said:

Please excuse the crooked picture and stroke. Gold Crown I rails have been properly calibrated for Diamond Black rubber (K55 profile) by Steve Leistikow (Tablemechanic on AZB). Five rails achieved at about 85% stroke.
https://youtu.be/yQXiKMzH0jo

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Nice! That table looks like it would be a real pleasure to play on.
This comment on the video made me laugh... :grin:
Is that you, TFT? (joking)

Sheldon said:

Nice! That table looks like it would be a real pleasure to play on.
This comment on the video made me laugh... :grin:
Is that you, TFT? (joking)

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No sir Joke taken Its not my style, I say what I am thinkin with my real name!

TFT

trentfromtoledo said:

Great Video. I could probably force more than 4-5, but, my stroke is just not that good when trying to beat a ball into the rail. I cannot say I would ever need anymore table lengths than that. In fact I am not sure how that even comes into play with bankin or kickin because I would never be hitting it that hard. I do understand for those many rail banks and kicks you need the speed.
TFT

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IMO, speed of a table is not centered around how many rails are needed for a specific position or banks but more so what needs to be done with the cue ball to obtain position play. Everyone knows the pocket-ability of a shot decreases substantially the harder it is hit. If the table is setup properly, one doesn't need to strike the cue ball as hard to get the desired result so the chance of pocketing the ball increases. Properly setup rails take spin better and the spin opens up position opportunities without the need for speed (stroking the cue ball hard).

I find it amazing ppl argue over the cushions on 60 year old GC’s. And you have to do xyz to make it perfect. Yet, diamond cushion/rail combination changed the game like night and day. And people say the diamonds are correct. Blue label are still not right, not even close. Unless the cloth is brand new and the room is dry as sand.

<=== thinks GC rails are 100x better than Diamond rails.

iusedtoberich said:

I find it amazing ppl argue over the cushions on 60 year old GC’s. And you have to do xyz to make it perfect. Yet, diamond cushion/rail combination changed the game like night and day. And people say the diamonds are correct. Blue label are still not right, not even close. Unless the cloth is brand new and the room is dry as sand.

<=== thinks GC rails are 100x better than Diamond rails.

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Those Artemis cushions are overrated. I've had two of them.

Had my GC2 done with them.
Yeah, it had Monarch cushions before.

It would be a lot simpler just to have Superspeed installed after extending the rails. Who's gonna miss some 48 inches of playing field ?
It might not bank as well but it probably still banks better than Artemis can be.

rexus31 said:

IMO, speed of a table is not centered around how many rails are needed for a specific position or banks but more so what needs to be done with the cue ball to obtain position play. Everyone knows the pocket-ability of a shot decreases substantially the harder it is hit. If the table is setup properly, one doesn't need to strike the cue ball as hard to get the desired result so the chance of pocketing the ball increases. Properly setup rails take spin better and the spin opens up position opportunities without the need for speed (stroking the cue ball hard).

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Good post and I understand all of that. It would be neat to be able to measure the difference between 2 tables by their rail specs, banking and kicking drills. I think Dr. Dave might be helpful in all this?

TFT

trentfromtoledo said:

Good post and I understand all of that. It would be neat to be able to measure the difference between 2 tables by their rail specs, banking and kicking drills. I think Dr. Dave might be helpful in all this?

TFT

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I thought I had the perfect opportunity to document and video the difference between the two back when my table was first restored. The contract I signed said the restorer of my table would install K-55 Black Diamond cushions, no mention of rail mods, and I knew I would be getting custom pro-cut rails from Mark Gregory...so anyway, I was setup to document the two setups, but low and behold, guess what the restorer installed on my rails? Yes, el cheapo K-66 cushions. Just like what Geoff mentioned earlier, the nose cushion height was 1-1/2". It played terrible, there were many situations that weren't even possible, for example a 5 rail bank/kick, or even a two rail back and forth, the second rail contact was a crazy angle. Oh well, maybe this post will give a heads up to anyone who runs into this situation again to document the difference. Needless to say I was ecstatic to get the Mark Gregory rails installed, it was like real pool again. LOL

I want to put a good plug in for Jack Zimmerman as well. I sent him the original rails for overhaul and those original rails now also play lights out. In the case of those rails it was pretty much a no-brainer that they needed new sub rails, they were stapled out and the rail facings angles were all over the place. It was obvious that my table had plenty of history at the old pool hall in Waxahachie Texas and it was time for overhaul.