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A point about those 100 and 200 ball runs!
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Snapshot9
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A point about those 100 and 200 ball runs! - 09-19-2007, 11:09 AM

I am old school, and back in the days, when someone had a big run in Straight Pool, it mattered whether it was from the break or not. That means from the 1st shot. That means you had to make a ball off the first break and then run balls.

Someone that ran a 100+ 'off the break' was held in higher esteem than just someone that had run a 100+, otherwise it is like having a running start before the run if the rack was broke up already.

How many starting break shots do you know that you can make a ball?

Another little thing, in the old days, playing the ghost was done with NO
ball in hand after break, and it was really something if you could beat the ghost back then.

Me, I am for keeping the 'difficulty' in Pool.......why, because it separates the men from the boys, the real players from the wannabees.

Your thoughts?


Scott 'Snapshot' Fraser
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09-19-2007, 11:23 AM

Right, wrong, or indifferent, I look at it kind of like golf: It's not how the shots looked that get there, it's how many shots you took that counts.

What I mean is in the end: The guy that hits Driver --> PW then 2 putts has the exact same score as the guy that hits 7-iron --> 7-iron --> PW --> 1 putt.


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09-19-2007, 11:27 AM

The other day I tried to run a hundred balls (not from the break) and it was hard as hell. I think any triple digit run is an accomplishment. My first 100+ run started because of a safety error by my opponent. I will never forget how proud I was afterwards - I had run 117 balls. I think it goes back to the old question - not how, but how many.

I get what you're saying though. I usually start out by tossing 14 on the table and manufacturing a break ball from that scatter. As I said earlier this year, I don't count the first rack of 14 that I run - because I am just trying to get a good break ball, get a feel for the cloth and how the balls are moving. Others have argued that my high run this year of 141 is actually a 155 - but I have always practiced straight pool like this - and to me, it's a 141.



As far as the ghost, I usually do not take ball in hand - unless it's 12 ball.


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09-19-2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot9
I am old school, and back in the days, when someone had a big run in Straight Pool, it mattered whether it was from the break or not. That means from the 1st shot. That means you had to make a ball off the first break and then run balls.

Someone that ran a 100+ 'off the break' was held in higher esteem than just someone that had run a 100+, otherwise it is like having a running start before the run if the rack was broke up already. ... Your thoughts?
I guess I would look at it a lot differently. I think that no top player playing a serious game would ever play a shot out of the rack rather than play safe on the first shot of the game. I have never seen it done in any serious tournament. If someone did try it, the other players would have thought of him as a goof-ball or a freak. I have heard that Mosconi did it under some circumstances, but I doubt that he ever did it in a world championship match.

That's not to say that it's always the wrong shot. In an intramural tournament in college, my doubles partner banked the corner ball back from the full rack three times in a game to 75. Our opponents probably couldn't have won anyway, but this move devastated them. I think my partner may also have figured that they were likely to miss after two shots and then I'd shoot. The table had soft pockets as big as all outdoors.


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09-19-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett
I guess I would look at it a lot differently. I think that no top player playing a serious game would ever play a shot out of the rack rather than play safe on the first shot of the game. I have never seen it done in any serious tournament. If someone did try it, the other players would have thought of him as a goof-ball or a freak. I have heard that Mosconi did it under some circumstances, but I doubt that he ever did it in a world championship match.

That's not to say that it's always the wrong shot. In an intramural tournament in college, my doubles partner banked the corner ball back from the full rack three times in a game to 75. Our opponents probably couldn't have won anyway, but this move devastated them. I think my partner may also have figured that they were likely to miss after two shots and then I'd shoot. The table had soft pockets as big as all outdoors.
I saw Mosconi several times in SF. On at least one occasion, to start off an exhibition match against a pretty helpless opponent, he played the corner ball bank for the break.

Personally, whenever I'm "going for the record" :-) I start with a break ball, ala your 14.1 challenge at the DCC. I use to just smack em wide open, but feel this is more legit.

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09-19-2007, 03:32 PM

100 is 100, I don't care how you start. If your opponent leaves you tough, a hanger, or a dead one in the pack....I don't care. Once you make one get in line, and run 60, 80, 100 plus.....you are playing straight pool!

I hear "who beat whom" to the shot in your post which is all well and good, but running 100's and beating the other guy to the shot are 2 different worlds IMO.

On a similar note....is 100 in practice worth as much as 100 in a match?

My first 106 and out was in a $ match, and totally unexpected. My high run 127 was in practice and I don't give it as much credence.

My best run IMO was 63 and out in a tourney against someone I wasn't supposed to beat, and Allen Hopkins, Jack C, and Danny B were watching.
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09-19-2007, 07:48 PM

I was taught "It ain't how many you run, it's who you run them against".


I had a stroke. I had it when I came in, I KNOW I did

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09-19-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot9
I am old school, and back in the days, when someone had a big run in Straight Pool, it mattered whether it was from the break or not. That means from the 1st shot. That means you had to make a ball off the first break and then run balls.

Someone that ran a 100+ 'off the break' was held in higher esteem than just someone that had run a 100+, otherwise it is like having a running start before the run if the rack was broke up already.

How many starting break shots do you know that you can make a ball?

Another little thing, in the old days, playing the ghost was done with NO
ball in hand after break, and it was really something if you could beat the ghost back then.

Me, I am for keeping the 'difficulty' in Pool.......why, because it separates the men from the boys, the real players from the wannabees.

Your thoughts?
Smacking the full pack and making a ball spreads the rest of them all over the table which makes the first 13 pretty easy pickins.

I like Blackjack's way of counting the run. Throw out 15 balls. Shoot them off leaving a break ball. Rack'm up and start counting w/the break ball being the first ball in the run.

That method truly does keep the difficulty in pool just as you suggest and just as it should be.


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The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eye and calls that humbleness."
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09-20-2007, 10:19 AM

Doesn't make sense to me that this is worth more respect. The guys who do this aren't doing anything special except gambling on a low percentage shot that no serious player would take when there's a lot at stake. As Jim noted, the first thirteen are easy so at least part of the run is easier than a 100 ball run from the racker.

Maybe it takes cojones to try that trickshot at the start, but equally it takes balls to fire in that long sharp 7-8 foot cut shot with the CB snug on the rail (see mike sigel vs. zuglan) and somehow chip away at the first rack and get rolling from a difficult position.

This sounds like one of those things old guys say to convince themselves (or others) that they really were superior to the know-nothing kids today... even after they've lost a step.

As for the question about how many shots I know of from a full rack:
1. top ball in the side pocket
2. corner ball into the corner pocket, but it's so touchy that it's insane... if the equipment is right you can do a 1p style break and try to hit the first and second balls at almost exactly the same time, sending the opposite corner ball towards the hole
3. Clip a corner ball somewhere between half full and 1/3rd full with inside english and plenty of speed to bank it in the corner nearest you
4. On a particular table I shoot on, I can very often put a ball just behind the apex ball into the side. Dunno if this should count though, because it pretty much seems to work on 1 table, with a particular guy racking, and I can't even get the other ball in the 2nd row to go towards the other side. So it's flukey.

Last edited by CreeDo; 09-20-2007 at 10:22 AM.
  
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09-20-2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett
I guess I would look at it a lot differently. I think that no top player playing a serious game would ever play a shot out of the rack rather than play safe on the first shot of the game. I have never seen it done in any serious tournament. If someone did try it, the other players would have thought of him as a goof-ball or a freak. I have heard that Mosconi did it under some circumstances, but I doubt that he ever did it in a world championship match.

That's not to say that it's always the wrong shot. In an intramural tournament in college, my doubles partner banked the corner ball back from the full rack three times in a game to 75. Our opponents probably couldn't have won anyway, but this move devastated them. I think my partner may also have figured that they were likely to miss after two shots and then I'd shoot. The table had soft pockets as big as all outdoors.
I have a couple of questions. When you are playing by yourself trying to run balls and you miss the rack on your breakout shot, is there a particular shot that is preferred or are you just out of luck?

Also, do you know Bill Hendricks, 1964 intercollegiate champion who lives in the St Louis area?
  
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09-20-2007, 10:48 AM

Seems like if you missed the rack on your breakout shot/break shot then you start over. You missed. You didn't pocket a ball so you start counting over.


"The average man seeks certainty in the eye of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence.
The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eye and calls that humbleness."
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Bob Jewett
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09-20-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by alstl
... When you are playing by yourself trying to run balls and you miss the rack on your breakout shot, is there a particular shot that is preferred or are you just out of luck?

Also, do you know Bill Hendricks, 1964 intercollegiate champion who lives in the St Louis area?
On the first point, if you are desperate to make a shot from a 14-ball (or full) rack, there are six or ten different shots that can be played. Bob Byrne has a bunch in one or more of his books. All of Byrne's pool-related books belong on your library shelf, even the one that is an anthology of "great pool stories."

Of the top of my head:
bank the corner ball back as mentioned before
from a 15-ball rack, head ball in the corner or kick the head ball 2 rails to the side
from under the rack, bank the corner ball cross-side
from under the rack play one of the head balls into the side
play the "one pocket dead ball break" by hitting the upper two balls on the side
play a shot like the one-pocket break where the cue ball runs towards the foot rail and knocks the corner ball in as the corner ball is bouncing off the foot rail (Mosconi played this in an exhibition to continue his run)

All of these depend very strongly on the rack and/or the condition of the cloth.


Bob Jewett
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09-20-2007, 03:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett
On the first point, if you are desperate to make a shot from a 14-ball (or full) rack, there are six or ten different shots that can be played. Bob Byrne has a bunch in one or more of his books. All of Byrne's pool-related books belong on your library shelf, even the one that is an anthology of "great pool stories."

Of the top of my head:
bank the corner ball back as mentioned before
from a 15-ball rack, head ball in the corner or kick the head ball 2 rails to the side
from under the rack, bank the corner ball cross-side
from under the rack play one of the head balls into the side
play the "one pocket dead ball break" by hitting the upper two balls on the side
play a shot like the one-pocket break where the cue ball runs towards the foot rail and knocks the corner ball in as the corner ball is bouncing off the foot rail (Mosconi played this in an exhibition to continue his run)

All of these depend very strongly on the rack and/or the condition of the cloth.
Thanks for the reply. I've got one of Byrne's books but I moved recently and I have no idea where it is.
  
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Bob Jewett
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09-20-2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett
... from a 15-ball rack, head ball in the corner or kick the head ball 2 rails to the side ...
Oops. The first shot should have been the head ball straight in the side, which is also a shot at nine ball. If anyone figures out how to make the head ball in any corner, I'd like to see it. Maybe on a bank off the side rail with transferred spin.


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09-22-2007, 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry
100 is 100, I don't care how you start. If your opponent leaves you tough, a hanger, or a dead one in the pack....I don't care.
I agree completely. How the run starts shouldn't matter.
  
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