Coring For Tone
- Thread starter KJ Cues
- Start date
Earlier in this thread an analogy was attempted at comparing the glue surface area of a cored cue vs a full-splice.
First let me say that it's a bad analogy in that a core is in suspension surrounded by a wall or sheet of glue whereas
in a F/S, both the handle-wood and front-wood are in total contact with each other. Are F/S under compression during
assembly ? I don't know, I don't yet build F/S blanks and possibly may not in the future either because I have a
supplier of F/S blanks that are already far superior to anything I could dream of building. His name is Ernest Omori.
Anyway, back to the analogy. Gl.contact surface area on a F/S would be difficult to calculate due the the various lengths
of the points on different blanks. I'm not saying it couldn't be done but that area would be for that given blank only.
The math needed to calculate the GSA (glue surface area) of a cored cue is much simpler.
The finished-length of a core is 29". The core's diameter is either 5/8" or 3/4" +/-. The tolerance or gap btwn the
sleeve-woods and the core has been suggested (and in some cases debated) to be btwn .005 and .010". Point being,
given your particular 'gap of glue', you now have all of the numbers to do this calculation for yourselves.
An easy way to visualize this calculation is to look at the wall of glue as a sheet. It becomes a sheet when you
slit it down it's length and uncurl it. There is no taper (no more than the core....oops) so both ends are the same.
This calc. will give you the volume of glue that is holding the core in suspension, or the sleeve-woods depending on how
you'd like to look at it. I've taken the liberty to do some priliminary numbers for those that don't have their calculators
at the ready.
The volume of glue needed for a 5/8" core is a nominal .427 cu.in. This number can vary by your core/sleeve tolerance.
Volume of glue for a 3/4" core (if all else remains the same) is a nominal .5125 cu.in. It doesn't sound like a lot
in either scenario but it's what's preventing your core and sleeves from making full mated contact.
In a F/S there is absolutely full contact of mating surfaces and the amount of glue holding that 'mate' condition is
all but negligible. The glue resides in the surface cells and pores only and what the RMS of the surfaces allows.
Let's now consider the different glues that are used in coring, there's at least 3 that I know of.
Do they all possess the same resonance properties because as you can see, it matters.
Do they 'brighten', do they dampen or do they stifle by insulating resonance ?
I've noticed that the thread has a post or two regarding 'plate' construction. For a minute, it was interesting.
But given what I've presented above, it's only application for us anyway, would be in the formation of 'stacked'
veneers such as we use in points and ring billets. It could have an abstract application in the connection of the F/A
to the wrap-handle but how much surface area are we talking about ? Can't do the numbers until you know dia. of the tenon.
Again, a bad analogy IMO and the person who presented it should have known better as his math skills are at least equal
to mine. I'll answer questions as my knowledge and experience allows but a ? formed as a trap will not be met favorably.
I'm not trying to be difficult here but rather to get you to see what you've all been avoiding from day one.
Maybe some of you are aware of it and are willing to go for a stronger build at the sacrifice of resonance, I don't know.
If you're fine with that, I couldn't be happier for you. You've at least committed to something you believe in.
I've made my decision on coring which is why I abandoned the idea of routine, shortly after my first post 4 yrs ago.
I truly hope that none of you are upset by the fact that I build what I want, when I want and in the manner I find best.
After all, it's my name only that's going on that build. EO will rightfully be acknowledged also.
Thanx for your time, KJ
First let me say that it's a bad analogy in that a core is in suspension surrounded by a wall or sheet of glue whereas
in a F/S, both the handle-wood and front-wood are in total contact with each other. Are F/S under compression during
assembly ? I don't know, I don't yet build F/S blanks and possibly may not in the future either because I have a
supplier of F/S blanks that are already far superior to anything I could dream of building. His name is Ernest Omori.
Anyway, back to the analogy. Gl.contact surface area on a F/S would be difficult to calculate due the the various lengths
of the points on different blanks. I'm not saying it couldn't be done but that area would be for that given blank only.
The math needed to calculate the GSA (glue surface area) of a cored cue is much simpler.
The finished-length of a core is 29". The core's diameter is either 5/8" or 3/4" +/-. The tolerance or gap btwn the
sleeve-woods and the core has been suggested (and in some cases debated) to be btwn .005 and .010". Point being,
given your particular 'gap of glue', you now have all of the numbers to do this calculation for yourselves.
An easy way to visualize this calculation is to look at the wall of glue as a sheet. It becomes a sheet when you
slit it down it's length and uncurl it. There is no taper (no more than the core....oops) so both ends are the same.
This calc. will give you the volume of glue that is holding the core in suspension, or the sleeve-woods depending on how
you'd like to look at it. I've taken the liberty to do some priliminary numbers for those that don't have their calculators
at the ready.
The volume of glue needed for a 5/8" core is a nominal .427 cu.in. This number can vary by your core/sleeve tolerance.
Volume of glue for a 3/4" core (if all else remains the same) is a nominal .5125 cu.in. It doesn't sound like a lot
in either scenario but it's what's preventing your core and sleeves from making full mated contact.
In a F/S there is absolutely full contact of mating surfaces and the amount of glue holding that 'mate' condition is
all but negligible. The glue resides in the surface cells and pores only and what the RMS of the surfaces allows.
Let's now consider the different glues that are used in coring, there's at least 3 that I know of.
Do they all possess the same resonance properties because as you can see, it matters.
Do they 'brighten', do they dampen or do they stifle by insulating resonance ?
I've noticed that the thread has a post or two regarding 'plate' construction. For a minute, it was interesting.
But given what I've presented above, it's only application for us anyway, would be in the formation of 'stacked'
veneers such as we use in points and ring billets. It could have an abstract application in the connection of the F/A
to the wrap-handle but how much surface area are we talking about ? Can't do the numbers until you know dia. of the tenon.
Again, a bad analogy IMO and the person who presented it should have known better as his math skills are at least equal
to mine. I'll answer questions as my knowledge and experience allows but a ? formed as a trap will not be met favorably.
I'm not trying to be difficult here but rather to get you to see what you've all been avoiding from day one.
Maybe some of you are aware of it and are willing to go for a stronger build at the sacrifice of resonance, I don't know.
If you're fine with that, I couldn't be happier for you. You've at least committed to something you believe in.
I've made my decision on coring which is why I abandoned the idea of routine, shortly after my first post 4 yrs ago.
I truly hope that none of you are upset by the fact that I build what I want, when I want and in the manner I find best.
After all, it's my name only that's going on that build. EO will rightfully be acknowledged also.
Thanx for your time, KJ
Slightly off there... The actual way to find the volume of glue, given the tolerance is even along the entire gluing surface (or at least averages to the specs), is to first find the volume of the cylinder consisting of core and glue, and subtracting the volume of the core.
Volume = pi * (1/2D)^2 * L, where D is the diameter of the core and L the length.
So for a .75" diameter core running full length, that would be a volume of approximately 12.8118cu.in. So for .0025" glue layer, that would equal .1714in^3 volume (12.9832-12.8118), for .005", that comes out to .3439in^3 (13.1557-12.8118), and for .010", .6924in^3 (13.5042-12-8118).
If you have a tapered core, the volume would be similar to having a core of diameter the average of the larger and smaller diameters.
I should re-emphasize, as a couple others have already alluded to, that the attenuation of certain frequencies can be just as important as its amplification. I believe the example was given before of using granadillo to "liven up" some bird's eye maple.. The opposite can be said; the bird's eye (or whatever type, really) maple can attenuate some of the "liveliness" of the granadillo. A lot of this has to do with the preference of the builder, and client. I think for the most part, clients seek builders, aside from the builder's aesthetics, for the particular "hit" or "feel" their cues possess. I haven't played a thousand cues, but enough to deduce that each builder tends to "gravitate" toward a particular hit, feel, and tone, with their cues, which is somewhat to very distinctive, regardless of what the show woods are. I don't find any better or worse; it takes me a couple racks at least to adjust.
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There ya go.. Know you're talkin my OTHER passion :thumbup:
Drums? Ride on, one of my hobbies as well. I loved the tone of the DW Drum Set I had, it was an all Maple kit, stained not painted.
DW tunes their drums to a certain note and that note is written on the inside of the drum. Best kits out there, I got rid of mine and set up two electric kits together, two brains and lots of drums.
KJ, I think an easy way to look at your post about gluing wood and looking at tone is to get some Maple ply wood, and Maple block. They don't sound the same. Depending the direction of the way the ply is cut, can vary as well. Different glues will have an effect as well.
For me, I believe that if you get everything matching, that there can be a small advantage in that cue.
I have no doubt, that some can create a handle that works well for a particular shaft type as well.
Neil
For me, I believe that if you get everything matching, that there can be a small advantage in that cue.
I have no doubt, that some can create a handle that works well for a particular shaft type as well.
Neil
Usually though with maple plywood, the maple is only a 1/32" or less veneer skin, with the inside plies usually made of poplar. Likely a better analogy would be maple steel rule die board, which is made up of layers of maple veneer of equal thickness. But even then, since the plies are oriented alternating 90 degrees to each other, it will sound different because it would be stiffer than that of a natural maple piece of same dimensions.
Don't mean to derail the thread but had to respond... SONOR Baby!! DW makes a great kit but I've been a Sonor child since the 80's..
Don't mean to derail the thread but had to respond... SONOR Baby!! DW makes a great kit but I've been a Sonor child since the 80's..
One thing that will not be argued, your Cymbals.
Zildjian A Customs I believe? Best of the best, that's what I had with my DW.
Nice looking set you have, Thanks, Dave.