Coring For Tone

K

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
I'm reading this article on African Blackwood and it got me to wondering.
I know nothing of guitar building but appreciate the intricacies of the craft.
The article mentioned that guitar builders (Luthiers) will use different woods
in different combinations to better achieve a particular tone, range, sustain, etc.
Each wood contributes it's own characteristics/qualities to the overall tone of the instrument.

In the article that I was reading, I believe this is what flipped the switch: (the author is speaking of Af.BW)
"Tonally, I would say that it can be as good as a great set of Brazilian when matched with the right top and
allowed to make its contribution to the overall tone of the guitar that it’s used in.
It has that nice quick bottom and great harmonic blanket that Brazilian lends to the final complexity of the guitar
in tandem with the contribution of the top and the builder’s work to maximize it.”

I then wondered; could this same principal be applied to cue-making via coring?
I don't see why it couldn't. Hit and tone are one in the same, just different applications.
Traditionally, the two greatest factors when considering to core are wght. adj. and added stability.
Sometimes both at the same time. I see this leading to more precise definitions of the term 'hit'.
You have the option of adjusting your core woods to achieve a desired end result.
Core-wood selection and different diameters of the core-wood, I see as being 'tuning keys'.
Maybe PH into BEM to get a stiffer/stronger hit whereas that same BEM could be sweetened out a bit with a Coco core.
Experiment with core diameters, the combinations are mind-boggling.

I haven't always been a fan of coring for the very reason that it did alter the hit characteristics.
I select my woods for the specific properties that I know them to have. Most times I guess right.
This, to me anyway, shines a different light on coring.
What I once considered to be coring's downside, I now see can be tweaked into a positive
enhancement to the hit and enjoyment of the cue. Tune the core to tune the cue.

Obviously, all this needs to be determined before you chuck the first piece of wood.
There is no adjustment once it's done.
You may not get it right the first time but by the third or fourth, you should be starting to learn something.

If all of this is already pretty much common knowledge then my only defense would be that I'm not always
the first one out of the gate. I try to finish strong though.

KJ
 
C

carguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
More experimentation in this area would be great. I've fooled with this a bit myself since I core almost everything and I make a lot of one piece butts.

A one piece purpleheart butt with a purpleheart core has a hell of a hit. It is still a purpleheart hit, but kind of super purpleheart. Same characteristics, but more. It rings like a bell. (Steady, Joe B.):smile:

I want to make more cues like this with other woods.
One using rosewood is in the works.
A maple one also.
I think it's a great area for research.


Robin Snyder
 
scdiveteam

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
Hi,

I core everything with a .740 maple dowel. I like the hit and feel it produces. It brings a consistency factor to my cues also.

Rick
 
Last edited:
whammo57

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

I core everything with a .740 maple dowel. I like the hit and feel it produces. It brings a consistency factor to my cues also.

Rick
Click to expand...

Ditto.... I think the consistency is important.... I am not sure that you can actually core to change the tone.

Kim

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
 
C

carguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

I core everything with a .740 maple dowel. I like the hit and feel it produces. It brings a consistency factor to my cues also.

Rick
Click to expand...

Rick- What other core materials have you experimented with?

Robin Snyder
 
scdiveteam

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
carguy said:
Rick- What other core materials have you experimented with?

Robin Snyder
Click to expand...

Robin,

I have used Purple Heart, birch, walnut and a few others on my A jointed cues.

When I changed to full coring my cues it has been maple for me because of the lower resonance or softer hit it brings to every cue. I want the hit of my cues to be as close as possible to each other. Maple core is the common denominator.

People who like a high pitched ring when the hit the ball would need to use ivory ferrules on my cues if the want a higher pitch audial feed back for their measured stroke.

Rick
 
ratcues

ratcues

No yodeling, please.
Silver Member
whammo57 said:
I am not sure that you can actually core to change the tone.
Click to expand...

Really? How could it not change? Assume everything else is the same, if you make one with a maple core and another with say, an ebony core, do you think it would sound different?

In forearms/fronts of playing cues, I use either PH or maple, depending on the host wood.
 
whammo57

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
ratcues said:
Really? How could it not change? Assume everything else is the same, if you make one with a maple core and another with say, an ebony core, do you think it would sound different?

In forearms/fronts of playing cues, I use either PH or maple, depending on the host wood.
Click to expand...

If you make one cue with a maple core and another with an ebony core they would sound and feel different but they would probably not be the same weight. It would be very hard to compare one change in a cue with out changing some other aspect that affects the feel, sound, and hit.

I meant that I am not sure on which core to use to adjust the perceived hit in a specific way. I have used PH to add an ounce to a cue and it felt like a good hit to me. I usually core with maple or laminated maple and it feels like a good hit to me also.

The people that buy my cues claim that the hit is great. Does coring change the feel of a cue??? Most likely... but.... how many people can tell you exactly how it feels different and how many people can actually feel that it is different and what do they have to compare it to????

I have hit with some production cues that feel dead. I have a scorpion cue that feels like a sand bag when you hit the cue ball.

Kim
 
C

carguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
scdiveteam said:
Robin,

I have used Purple Heart, birch, walnut and a few others on my A jointed cues.

When I changed to full coring my cues it has been maple for me because of the lower resonance or softer hit it brings to every cue. I want the hit of my cues to be as close as possible to each other. Maple core is the common denominator.

People who like a high pitched ring when the hit the ball would need to use ivory ferrules on my cues if the want a higher pitch audial feed back for their measured stroke.

Rick
Click to expand...

" if they want a higher pitch audial feed back for their measured stroke."
Wow! Sounds serious! Almost spilled my coffee! :)

I like maple cores too but I use different woods for the core depending on what the main wood is and the hit I want to achieve. I also use cores to adjust the weight and sometimes the balance.
I can make my cues play very similar to each other too, but different people want different things. Since I don't use ferrules I do the final dial in on the hit I want with the tip I use.

I've noticed that what one person calls "a soft hit" someone else calls "dead" and what some call a "nice lively, springy hit" others call "hard" or "harsh" or even "over amplified". Go figure.

I make cues "player specific" to match the individual player's taste if I know what they like. That's the "custom" part to me.

I recently made two birdseye maple cues which are visually similar, one all maple, one with a purpleheart core, and I brought both to the pool hall yesterday. Most players liked one a bit better than the other; it was pretty evenly split. But a surprising number of players really didn't have a preference and liked them equally well which was great, but it completely frustrated my effort to mine data. :(

I usually have a potential customer hit balls with a few different cues to see what their preference is, then go from there.

Robin Snyder
 
ratcues

ratcues

No yodeling, please.
Silver Member
whammo57 said:
If you make one cue with a maple core and another with an ebony core they would sound and feel different but they would probably not be the same weight. It would be very hard to compare one change in a cue with out changing some other aspect that affects the feel, sound, and hit.
Click to expand...

My example was to show a drastic difference in tone, which is what your original statement referenced. You made no provision for weight. How about two woods that are closer in weight? PH and bacote. Do you think they would offer different tones? I do.

Why do you think Brazilian RW is so sought after but Mexican CB isn't? They are very similar woods. BRW has a specific tone, as does every other wood. It may not be a tone to everyone's liking but it is specific, nonetheless. These differences may be minutia but isn't that what we are talking about when players like the hit of one cue but not another?

I've seen it with my own cues. I had five cue made identical and had a pro player come up and hit with all of them. He bought two and left the other three because he didn't like the way they hit. Everything was seemingly the same. What was the difference?

I'm not trying to single you out. As always, I just want you to keep an open and expanded mind. :wink:
 
K

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
whammo57 said:
Ditto.... I think the consistency is important.... I am not sure that you can actually core to change the tone.

Kim

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

To have doubt is a good thing. You should question everything.
To blindly accept everything presented as-is was what got us involved in Iraq
and gave us those 3 little letters to remember it by: WMD (weapons of mass destruction).
To have doubts is one thing but I'd want to know what is the source of your doubt.
Have you done any research on the subject or is there anything we can read to support your doubt?
First let me say that I'm not selling anything here, not the concept, no 1" exotic dowels or coring glue.
I'm exploring it's implimentation to cue-building and I'm liking what I'm reading.
Luthiers stack these woods for a reason. Modifying tone seems to be a biggie.
So why wouldn't this work in cues?

I'd suggest that anyone who has interest in this concept, to do some research.
Simply Google 'guitar woods' and read until your heart's content.
I'm not doing your homework for you. I don't have the time nor the inclination.
Just reading this thread is not enough though food for thought has already started to emerge.
For instance, coring exclusively with Maple for a consistent hit. I can see how that would happen.
All the way up to the point where you change the 'shell-wood' (the wood you use for a forearm).
Then the equation changes. By themselves, does EBO hit like BEM? Does a core alter that hit?
Would the hit be altered to a different degree if the core were PH or if it were Br. Rose?
My thinking is that by coring, you are taking away from the somewhat predictable hit of the Maple F/A
and replacing what you've taken away with the introduction of the hit qualities of a different wood.
You will have made the hit, a combination of the two. Therefore, "tune the core to tune the cue".
I also suggested that diameter of the core could be used to lessen or increase the core's influence of tone.

I started this thread to get people to think and doubts are part of that.
Doubts are valid if they're supported. Further research might support or disprove them.
Eventually, real-world testing and building may be needed (and ultimately will) prove or disprove the theory.
Since Luthiers have already done most of this, wouldn't it make sense to follow their lead?
Or would that be too easy?

KJ
 
Lexicologist71

Lexicologist71

Rabid Schuler fanatic
Silver Member
I think the biggest problem is that 'good' means so many different and occasionally
opposite things when talking to more than one person. I used to look down my
nose at cues that had a soft hit. Now, if the cue is doing it's job, I don't care a lot about
how firm the hit. I am human. I can adjust and play with just about anything.
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
You can plug up a full-maple cue, 3 inches of ebony or bocote or pplheart down the joint, and it will change the hit by a bit.
If you can't notice the difference in the hit of a rosewood core from a maple core, something in you construction I think is killing the resonance down the grip.
The less stuff you have between the forearm and the handle, the better.
There's a reason why so many good players/gamblers play with sneaky petes.
Maple front and rosewood handle/prong is very common among them.

I use maple and rosewood cores for forearms and handles.
 
C

carguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
whammo57 said:
The people that buy my cues claim that the hit is great. Does coring change the feel of a cue??? Most likely... but.... how many people can tell you exactly how it feels different and how many people can actually feel that it is different and what do they have to compare it to????

I have hit with some production cues that feel dead. I have a scorpion cue that feels like a sand bag when you hit the cue ball.

Kim
Click to expand...

Kim-
At the pool hall there is one guy who I like and who I enjoy to play who plays with a cheap production cue he's had a few years. It was his replacement for a better cue that was stolen. He's personalized it in various ways. He changed the wrap. He neatly painted a small motto on the butt. He's very attached to it; it's a sentimental thing I suppose.
It is surely one of the worst cues, if not the very worst cue I have ever struck a ball with. It hits like a steel rod. Really, really bad. None of us cool pool hipsters would EVER play with something like this.

He loves this cue and plays well with it. For him it is the absolute standard of excellence by which all other cues will be judged. He's tried other cues, but this is what he likes.

Understand that this is a really nice guy with a great mind and a great sense of humor.
A teacher. I like teachers. We need more of those. Teachers make the world better for our kids..........

And he loves pool. I've seen him come from zero and study books, work hard, grind out endless drills, gamble with better players, anything he could do to improve his game. He's as serious as a heart attack.

So purely out of...err.. compassion, yes, that's the word, I want to help him. He obviously needs a better stick!
So I have him hit balls with every cue I make, trying to open his eyes to what the world has to offer. How his life could be better, more fulfilling....how he could put balls on his game! How that money he squanders on nice shoes and clothes could be so easily redirected to improve his life in more important, if somewhat esoteric ways!

He won't do it. He likes what he likes.
I cannot imagine what I could ever build that he would like more.
There is not now and there will never be any rational accounting for taste.

Robin Snyder
 
C

carguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I guess my point was that there is a guy out there who absolutely LOVES the way a sandbag hits, and if you can produce a sandbag hit on command for the guy, he'll love it.

The trouble is that I'm afraid someone else will try the cue and say "My God! That Robin guy makes cues that hit like a sandbag! Yuck!"

Every cue I make has to also pass my own standard.

For me, coring, besides all it's other values, gives me the flexibility for my cues to more closely fit the tastes of more players.

Robin Snyder< used to work in research, now I'm addicted to it.
 
Last edited:
whammo57

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
carguy said:
Kim-
At the pool hall there is one guy who I like and who I enjoy to play who plays with a cheap production cue he's had a few years. It was his replacement for a better cue that was stolen. He's personalized it in various ways. He changed the wrap. He neatly painted a small motto on the butt. He's very attached to it; it's a sentimental thing I suppose.
It is surely one of the worst cues, if not the very worst cue I have ever struck a ball with. It hits like a steel rod. Really, really bad. None of us cool pool hipsters would EVER play with something like this.

He loves this cue and plays well with it. For him it is the absolute standard of excellence by which all other cues will be judged. He's tried other cues, but this is what he likes.

Understand that this is a really nice guy with a great mind and a great sense of humor.
A teacher. I like teachers. We need more of those. Teachers make the world better for our kids..........

And he loves pool. I've seen him come from zero and study books, work hard, grind out endless drills, gamble with better players, anything he could do to improve his game. He's as serious as a heart attack.

So purely out of...err.. compassion, yes, that's the word, I want to help him. He obviously needs a better stick!
So I have him hit balls with every cue I make, trying to open his eyes to what the world has to offer. How his life could be better, more fulfilling....how he could put balls on his game! How that money he squanders on nice shoes and clothes could be so easily redirected to improve his life in more important, if somewhat esoteric ways!

He won't do it. He likes what he likes.
I cannot imagine what I could ever build that he would like more.
There is not now and there will never be any rational accounting for taste.

Robin Snyder
Click to expand...

That's the deal........ everyone has their own thoughts on what a cue should feel like. The one that you said hit like a steel rod is what I like. I repaired a guy's cue that had a buzz in the butt. I fixed the buzz but the cue has a tone, more like a ping when you play a hard draw shot while holding the cue in a light grip. I love it, the owner thinks it still bad..... to each his own.

I find that I can make a hard hit by using a 1/2 in ferrule that is just a tube and cutting the tip down. I can make a cue hit like a sponge by making a ferrule that is 2 in long and turing 1 in of it to 1/4 in. Then drill the shaft and insert it. Leave the 1 in ferrule solid. I sounds like "thud" when you hit the cue ball.

Kim
 
QMAKER

QMAKER

LIVE FREE OR DIE
Silver Member
Full length coring

Me thinks you are reinventing the wheel. Iv'e been full length coring for 15 years and got the idea from another guy. Over that period of time I have tried all kinds of wood combinations. I can save QM's a lot of time and trouble by just getting some quartersawn straight grained PH. Me thinks the secret of full length coring is a stop block at the no longer existing "A" joint.
But, I could be wrong, and probably tis. But what do I know being a former
and still sometimes luthier.

KJ Cues said:
To have doubt is a good thing. You should question everything.
To blindly accept everything presented as-is was what got us involved in Iraq
and gave us those 3 little letters to remember it by: WMD (weapons of mass destruction).
To have doubts is one thing but I'd want to know what is the source of your doubt.
Have you done any research on the subject or is there anything we can read to support your doubt?
First let me say that I'm not selling anything here, not the concept, no 1" exotic dowels or coring glue.
I'm exploring it's implimentation to cue-building and I'm liking what I'm reading.
Luthiers stack these woods for a reason. Modifying tone seems to be a biggie.
So why wouldn't this work in cues?

I'd suggest that anyone who has interest in this concept, to do some research.
Simply Google 'guitar woods' and read until your heart's content.
I'm not doing your homework for you. I don't have the time nor the inclination.
Just reading this thread is not enough though food for thought has already started to emerge.
For instance, coring exclusively with Maple for a consistent hit. I can see how that would happen.
All the way up to the point where you change the 'shell-wood' (the wood you use for a forearm).
Then the equation changes. By themselves, does EBO hit like BEM? Does a core alter that hit?
Would the hit be altered to a different degree if the core were PH or if it were Br. Rose?
My thinking is that by coring, you are taking away from the somewhat predictable hit of the Maple F/A
and replacing what you've taken away with the introduction of the hit qualities of a different wood.
You will have made the hit, a combination of the two. Therefore, "tune the core to tune the cue".
I also suggested that diameter of the core could be used to lessen or increase the core's influence of tone.

I started this thread to get people to think and doubts are part of that.
Doubts are valid if they're supported. Further research might support or disprove them.
Eventually, real-world testing and building may be needed (and ultimately will) prove or disprove the theory.
Since Luthiers have already done most of this, wouldn't it make sense to follow their lead?
Or would that be too easy?

KJ
Click to expand...
 
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