Cut indused Cue Ball Spin

3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hard for me to find the words for this question but gotta start somewhere.
While under quarantine I'm on my 3C table more than ever which is a good thing.
A large percentage of my shots I'm clocking the CB and now trying to expand on that knowledge trying to get more precision beyond 1/2Ball and thin hits sending the CB perpendicular to a rail.

I'm wondering if there's been any study on what's added or subtracted to the CB with outside or inside English with 1/8 or 1/4 or .... hits.

I'm finding there's a considerable amount of interaction. I know the reason but can't get a handle on the rhyme. When do things change, For instance with inside English and shooting directly perpendicular to a rail into a ball where is the change from taking the spin or the CB English reversing?

Sorry if this doesn't clear enough.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
3kushn said:
Hard for me to find the words for this question but gotta start somewhere.
While under quarantine I'm on my 3C table more than ever which is a good thing.
A large percentage of my shots I'm clocking the CB and now trying to expand on that knowledge trying to get more precision beyond 1/2Ball and thin hits sending the CB perpendicular to a rail.

I'm wondering if there's been any study on what's added or subtracted to the CB with outside or inside English with 1/8 or 1/4 or .... hits.

I'm finding there's a considerable amount of interaction. I know the reason but can't get a handle on the rhyme. When do things change, For instance with inside English and shooting directly perpendicular to a rail into a ball where is the change from taking the spin or the CB English reversing?

Sorry if this doesn't clear enough.
Click to expand...
Are you asking at what cut angle inside spin and cut-induced outside spin cancel each other?

pj
chgo
 
3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
It isn't clear at all. I think you need to make a diagram.
Click to expand...
Thank you Bob, for chiming in.
Is there something like wei table? Or do I need to take photos?

Lets imagine looking at a short angle shot. Ball 2 is on the second diamond. CB is say on the second diamond less a ball width to the right, the short rail is on the right. Nothing frozen to the rails. Ball 3 is on the 1st diamond on the opposite long rail. Then look at the CB close to the short rail. Rather than essentially half ball hit stuff.

The other shot would be the 3rd ball is sitting say near the 1st diamond on the short rail. A nice reverse English shot. Consider the 2 CB positions.

Of course there's other ways to make these. Not my question. Just trying to figure out cuing and cuts.

At least a starting point.
 
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3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
Are you asking at what cut angle inside spin and cut-induced outside spin cancel each other?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Had to read that 4 times but yes. Hit thickness is the other variable.
I'm also looking at outside induced English on the "Cue Ball"

I'm sure there's now absolute precision in this. Just looking for a starting point.

I'm getting inconsistent results.
Lets assume I'm a repeatable robot to remove all those things.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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3kushn said:
Thank you Bob, for chiming in.
Is there something like wei table? ...
Click to expand...
(Unfortunately, the usability concepts behind the wei table were broken and Wei lost interest in improving it or maintaining it after a few years.)

Here you go:

https://pad.chalkysticks.com/
CropperCapture[512].png

Lots of settings. I use a screen-capture tool to get the image. Maybe there is a built-in way.

(And I use a different tool for my diagrams that I am already familiar with, so I don't know the details of how to use chalkysticks.)

Other resources (including things like Chalkysticks) are listed on Dr. Dave's pages:
https://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/templates/
 
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S

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
3kushn said:
Had to read that 4 times but yes. Hit thickness is the other variable.
I'm also looking at outside induced English on the "Cue Ball"

I'm sure there's now absolute precision in this. Just looking for a starting point.

I'm getting inconsistent results.
Lets assume I'm a repeatable robot to remove all those things.
Click to expand...

Just to post, I play billiards like it's pool; essentially locking in the object ball and shooting the carom. You get way more kisses in this manner but that's how I learn. Gradually the cut this or drive this dilemma clears up leaving you (me) to deal with competence issues.
If you're real anal about practice, you can drill on exit direction (the vector and break of the cue ball) and drill that till you know it picture perfect by heart. The issues here form the crux (Wutevuh TF that means) of inconsistency.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
Are you asking at what cut angle inside spin and cut-induced outside spin cancel each other?
Click to expand...

3kushn said:
Had to read that 4 times but yes.
Click to expand...
Different amounts of cut-induced CB spin are produced at different cut angles, CB speed and CB vertical rotation (follow, stun or draw) - and of course it takes different amounts of inside spin to match the cut-induced CB spin for each set of conditions.

So the answer is "it depends".

Glad to help, :)

pj
chgo
 
3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
Different amounts of cut-induced CB spin are produced at different cut angles, CB speed and CB vertical rotation (follow, stun or draw) - and of course it takes different amounts of inside spin to match the cut-induced CB spin for each set of conditions.

So the answer is "it depends".

Glad to help, :)

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I was afraid the answer was "well you just have to check you gut"
Here's some Chalky images And sorry about the size. 25K is still too big
Drop-In.jpg

Long-Inside-Spin.jpg

Reverse_Short-Angle.jpg
 
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Tennesseejoe

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
3kushn, are you asking about the direction of a cue call using force follow instead of using the tangent line?
 
3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tennesseejoe said:
3kushn, are you asking about the direction of a cue call using force follow instead of using the tangent line?
Click to expand...

Force follow has nothing to do with this. I think.
I'm asking what is the amount of spin (English) added or subtracted from the CB after colliding with the OB. Is there a way to quantify some way in order to adjust is the real question. What do I add or subtract depending on the hit and angle?

All the science it seems is about the OB. I'm more about the CB.
 
S

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tennesseejoe said:
3kushn, are you asking about the direction of a cue call using force follow instead of using the tangent line?
Click to expand...
Sounds to me like he's curious about nailing the zone in that 1' circle right around the first contact. This area is a soup of catastrophic flip-flops if you're trying to nail the point of change. It's worse if a cushion in that circle is the second collision. Add positional requirements and shooter inconsistency, it's no wonder the players rely on cinch stroke shots rather than shot plotting.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
3kushn said:
I'm asking what is the amount of spin (English) added or subtracted from the CB after colliding with the OB. Is there a way to quantify some way in order to adjust is the real question. What do I add or subtract depending on the hit and angle?
Click to expand...
As said before, it depends - but you can develop a feel for it with an organized approach:

With no side spin, cut-induced CB spin is maximized with a slow stunned half ball hit and minimized with full (straight) and thin hits.

Using that as guidance, place an OB on the spot and shoot it directly at the middle diamond on the end rail from various cut angles, stunning the CB so it goes at a right angle directly into the side rail at the second diamond. Start with no side spin and note the CB’s rebound angle off the rail for each amount of cut angle. Then find the amount of inside spin needed to straighten the rebound out at each cut angle.

Then try different speeds and tip heights.

pj
chgo
 
3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
straightline said:
Sounds to me like he's curious about nailing the zone in that 1' circle right around the first contact. This area is a soup of catastrophic flip-flops if you're trying to nail the point of change. It's worse if a cushion in that circle is the second collision. Add positional requirements and shooter inconsistency, it's no wonder the players rely on cinch stroke shots rather than shot plotting.
Click to expand...

straightline, So that you have a better idea what I'm talking about, here's another diagram. First of all I'm talking about Clocking the CB. Applying a determined amount of English that gives me a specific amount of spread which I attempted to show with the 4 lines going to the 3 diamonds.

With the shot on the right, in theory (and basically in practice) in order to make the shot, my tip placement needs to be where I achieve 2 diamonds of spread shown at the right. But the problem with on this shot there's a small amount of English that's removed from the CB from the collision on the OB.

The question is can the subtracted amount of English be determined in some way? I am aware there's all kinds of variables that can enter into this but hoped there was at least a starting point.

For now I'll just accept what Patrick is saying. Practice and figure it out. There is no real formula of any kind. Only that this hit produces more that that hit.

Clock-Explanation.jpg
 
S

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
3kushn said:
straightline, So that you have a better idea what I'm talking about, here's another diagram. First of all I'm talking about Clocking the CB. Applying a determined amount of English that gives me a specific amount of spread which I attempted to show with the 4 lines going to the 3 diamonds.

With the shot on the right, in theory (and basically in practice) in order to make the shot, my tip placement needs to be where I achieve 2 diamonds of spread shown at the right. But the problem with on this shot there's a small amount of English that's removed from the CB from the collision on the OB.

The question is can the subtracted amount of English be determined in some way? I am aware there's all kinds of variables that can enter into this but hoped there was at least a starting point.

For now I'll just accept what Patrick is saying. Practice and figure it out. There is no real formula of any kind. Only that this hit produces more that that hit.

RE.jpg
Click to expand...

Good you picked one close to the cushion.
What I'm thinking is you don't get the same action as just shooting the ball not so much from friction cancelling your english but from the carom exit not having the room; the distance, for the ball to settle into the intended path.

IOW the cue ball bounces a hair further up table than desired requiring more left spring to bring it into spec for this shot; part of that 1 foot circle of chaos every time balls collide.
If that's confusing I'll try and refine my English (lol) or someone who gets it can translate into billiardese.
 
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