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07-01-2020, 11:01 AM

Because they work.... lol


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07-01-2020, 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
A personal pet peeve of mine is when people oversell their product and try to make you believe they have "the secret" waiting for you.

There are many important reasons lower level player don't improve:

Bad stroke mechanics
Inconsistent stroke mechanics
Failure to focus during practice
Lack of motivation to practice enough
Lack of understanding of physics of the game

To name a few.

There is no "secret", no silver bullet, no magic pill, no mantra that will speed your improvement other than hard work and doing the roadwork and reps.

Lou Figueroa
sorry about that

I agree with you Lou, but I didn't see in the thread the real reason that lower level players don't improve.

THEY DONT PRACTICE and SPEND THE TIME AT THE TABLE.

They argue over handicaps and other bull$hit that doesn't make them better.

Everyone wants to talk about eyes, stance, stroke.....I will use Keith McCready as an example. He was a great player. But watching his stroke is almost painful. Nobody should play as well as he does with that goofy side arm stroke. Keith was a champion because he played and played and played.

Like you Lou, everyone wants to be a champion but nobody wants to put the time in.

That's my 2 cents.

Ken


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07-01-2020, 12:34 PM

I would tend to agree with you Gene.

i am right handed but left eye dominant and like a lot of players i used to line up the shot so my cue was right under centre of chin. My game used to go through spells of inconsistency which i could never explain. A couple of my snooker friends said my stance, pre-shot routine, delivery of cue all looked pretty solid so couldn't quite figure out issue.

I worked out i was left eye dominant so started lining up shots under left eye which seemed to improve things slightly but still not 100%. Then recently was was watching some videos on finding your vision centre, one by Dr Dave especially. I tried that and found that my ideal cue alignment is just about 1/2 inch to left of centre of chin. Ever since then my long straight potting has improved dramatically and is very consistent from match to match or practice session to practice session.

When you haven't been able to practise for few weeks it is easy to go back to old habits so now as soon as i start any practice session i really focus on ensuring i find vision centre straight from the off and it does make a difference. However i agree you also need dedication, sound fundamentals and good pre -shot routine as well.
  
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07-01-2020, 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
I believe that for every player whose primary problem is not knowing how to aim, there are 1,000 players who know exactly where to aim but don't know how to deliver the cue ball on the line of aim selected.
I'd put that a little differently...

...there are 1,000 players who could learn exactly where to aim quickly and instinctively if they could consistently deliver the cue ball on the line of aim selected.

In other words, I think both skills are learned together.

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The Elephant in the room
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The Elephant in the room - 07-01-2020, 12:51 PM

Some are born with it, some never get it


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07-01-2020, 02:54 PM

I've never bought in to the eye dominance thing... I'd hazard a guess and say the large bulk of lower end players suffer from a mix horrible fundamentals and the dunning kruger effect.


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They can't even get started..
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Thumbs up They can't even get started.. - 07-01-2020, 02:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_4fun View Post
I agree with you Lou, but I didn't see in the thread the real reason that lower level players don't improve.

THEY DONT PRACTICE and SPEND THE TIME AT THE TABLE.

They argue over handicaps and other bull$hit that doesn't make them better.

Everyone wants to talk about eyes, stance, stroke.....I will use Keith McCready as an example. He was a great player. But watching his stroke is almost painful. Nobody should play as well as he does with that goofy side arm stroke. Keith was a champion because he played and played and played.

Like you Lou, everyone wants to be a champion but nobody wants to put the time in.

That's my 2 cents.

Ken
If you went golfing and everytime you hit the balls it went sideways do you think you would like golf. If you went bowling and everytime you threw the ball it went in the gutter how long do you think you would like bowling?

The biggest problem with anything, if you suck real bad and it just doesn't seem to be anyway to make it better it's tough to get kind of addicted to the game. Pool is addictive but not to someone that feels like they are just pushing the cue ball around.

Once these opposite eye dominant players that have struggled for years to try and make any sense to anything get it right there is a huge smile that cuts across their face.

Then they can get addicted. Then they can love the game. Then they can get interested. Then they can actually start making balls.

But unless you see this happen and live in the shell that just let's you see the shots and play pretty good it's hard to understand.

And continue to just think these people just suck or don't care. They are doing the best they can do with this obstacle that they don't know how to overcome.

Pool just becomes a social thing for many of them as it is with most other players. The problem is, why try to get better if it seems like mission impossible. .
  
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Dominant eye doesn't matter when driving a car.
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Dominant eye doesn't matter when driving a car. - 07-01-2020, 03:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_JV View Post
I've never bought in to the eye dominance thing... I'd hazard a guess and say the large bulk of lower end players suffer from a mix horrible fundamentals and the dunning kruger effect.
The reason why is we don't have to get close enough to go cross-eyed. If it did it would not be safe to be on the road.

This is why everyone drives pretty good. Eye dominance does not matter when driving a car or many other things we do.

This is why the athlete that does everything well gets on the pool table and just sucks. Top baseball player in high school. Gymnast. Diver on the swim team. And can make a ball on the pool table.

This is why can I take this same player that has sucked on the table for 5 years, rated a 3 all that time and show them how to get this eye thing right and almost immediately they are pocketing balls that before were not even a thought of being close.

These people don't naturally suck. They just didn't figure it out naturally from repetition. The sights were just crooked on their gun. Once this is straightened out the fun begins.

Now they can get addicted like everyone else.

I'm just sharing this because I see it over and over.

Over 3,000 lessons and seeing the same thing over and over.

And sure there are many aspects to the game that need to be learned but if any shot looks impossible and crooked why even try to get better. Just show up to league and try to have some fun. But this can be fixed.
.
  
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Smartest reply on this thread.....
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Smartest reply on this thread..... - 07-01-2020, 03:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by paolo2144 View Post
I would tend to agree with you Gene.

i am right handed but left eye dominant and like a lot of players i used to line up the shot so my cue was right under centre of chin. My game used to go through spells of inconsistency which i could never explain. A couple of my snooker friends said my stance, pre-shot routine, delivery of cue all looked pretty solid so couldn't quite figure out issue.

I worked out i was left eye dominant so started lining up shots under left eye which seemed to improve things slightly but still not 100%. Then recently was was watching some videos on finding your vision centre, one by Dr Dave especially. I tried that and found that my ideal cue alignment is just about 1/2 inch to left of centre of chin. Ever since then my long straight potting has improved dramatically and is very consistent from match to match or practice session to practice session.

When you haven't been able to practise for few weeks it is easy to go back to old habits so now as soon as i start any practice session i really focus on ensuring i find vision centre straight from the off and it does make a difference. However i agree you also need dedication, sound fundamentals and good pre -shot routine as well.
Sounds like you escaped from the trenches of crooked sight syndrome. Players that think there is nothing to this should study your words of wisdom here. Because your right hand, right eye and the cue are on the right side it is easy to just let the right eye work like the dominant eye. And it will just do the best it can do naturally. Eventually some players after playing for years will naturally drift to this better position from repetition, just like swinging an ax. But, if you can get some help with this you can improve at a rate that never seemed possible.

Thank you for your spot on reply here. You can lead a pool player to information but you can't force them to learn. This thread really points out the reasons why.

I know exactly what I'm talking about but the great info I'm sharing here kind of gets covered up by so many, I don't think so,
  
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Same old same old
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Same old same old - 07-01-2020, 03:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
A personal pet peeve of mine is when people oversell their product and try to make you believe they have "the secret" waiting for you.

There are many important reasons lower level player don't improve:

Bad stroke mechanics
Inconsistent stroke mechanics
Failure to focus during practice
Lack of motivation to practice enough
Lack of understanding of physics of the game

To name a few.

There is no "secret", no silver bullet, no magic pill, no mantra that will speed your improvement other than hard work and doing the roadwork and reps.

Lou Figueroa
sorry about that
My old friend Lou. Too bad we didn't play some years ago at the Break. Would have been fun.
  
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The eye fix is the same for everyone.
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The eye fix is the same for everyone. - 07-01-2020, 03:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili Palmer View Post
I believe eye dominance plays a huge roll in lower level players but as you mention, nothing works if you can't hit the ball correctly.

IMHO, there are people with naturally good stances that can't see the ball and there are people who can see the ball but can't swing a stick straight to save their life. Not trying to argue or disagree but I do not believe there is one simple fix for everyone, there are just too many variables.
They just don't know it a very few people understand it enough to really help players everywhere. It's simple to fix but at the same time very difficult.

First the dominant eye has to be identified absolutely correctly.

Then the degree of dominance needs to be determined.

Then the stance has to be adjusted to accommodate the new correct eye position.

Then the player needs to learn how to come down into the shot and not slip over to where they are used to coming down.

There are so many things to this that are just pool related in general and need to be fixed. Things that need to be done to make this transition work well. That many teachers that I know that have tried to teach it just kind of give up. They just get stuck because there are so many scenarios that enter into the correction.

It took me 10 years to perfect this and still I have players that try to trash my hard work in 10 minutes with a few careless words knowing absolutely nothing about what they are talking about.

I guess it is their right to express that they don't understand it at all by dissing it a junk.

But to the players that learn how to do this their game is in for some real fun. The poolhall will be busier because they will want to play more. Instead of leaving immediately after league they will hang out and play some because it is fun to be able to see what your doing and be able to do a little something with those balls on the table.

Getting those eyes right just makes the game a little more fun for everyone.
  
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disagree - 07-01-2020, 03:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRED View Post
Some are born with it, some never get it
For those who want to get better at pool I'd recommend looking beyond cueing techniques and try to understand the attitudes and beliefs that champions choose. This isn't one of them. Champions believe that with the right outlook and work ethic they can achieve success. It's up to each of us who we want to model our outlook after. 2 ball runners, 20 ball runners, or 200 ball runners. I don't know this person and am not disrespecting him, his opinion, or his pool game.

As for Geno, I understand he phrased this a bit provocatively because it's true that at the beginner level there are many leaks that might be the biggest for individual players. Lack of focus and effort, lack of table time, lack of knowledge, few role models to demonstrate good play, poor fundamentals, and so on. What I CAN say is that for anyone to play well they have to be able to set up on the ball correctly so the cue ball goes where you think it should. Otherwise you get inconsistent results, inconsistent feedback, and you feel tight and awkward on every shot.

This isn't a problem for everyone. Some people naturally figure out the right way to sight, usually because they are positioned exactly under one eye and they put in a ton of hours on the table. I have my cue between my eyes but further to the left of my chin it can be very tricky, especially as I am right handed and I can easily lose my sighting if I drop down on the shot carelessly. For guys like me what Geno has to say is water to a an in the desert. I'm fortunate enough to live in Geno's home town and we have played many, many, many times over the years. Last time we got together to play I tossed him an extra $50 just for answering a few questions I had about some things that were bothering me. I apologized that I could never pay him fairly for all he'd done for me, but I would at least show him some acknowledgement!

PS- for anyone that comes to MN for a 3 day bootcamp, if you are interested in what Geno is teaching I am happy to loop him in for a few hours of our session.


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07-01-2020, 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
For those who want to get better at pool I'd recommend looking beyond cueing techniques and try to understand the attitudes and beliefs that champions choose.
Nonetheless, you either have "it" or you don't. No amount of boot camps will make someone who does not have what the champions have a champion.

It's like Golf. You make great strides until you don't and that is the end of the great strides.


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07-01-2020, 04:15 PM

Some of the great player of yester year started playing Pool stand on a Milk Box, or Chair. Th3ey contoured their bodies to improvise, and adapt. Later in life they still line up funny, they experts on form would point out. But they were still great players.

The reason was Pool was their passion, their job, they were at work 8 hours or more as day, practicing, playing, gambling, and make their living off the game.

If this "Perfect Thing" is so great how come Geno is not as well know as Strickland, Archer, Frost Fisher, Efrin, Joe's, and the other greats?


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07-01-2020, 04:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_4fun View Post
I agree with you Lou, but I didn't see in the thread the real reason that lower level players don't improve.

THEY DONT PRACTICE and SPEND THE TIME AT THE TABLE.

They argue over handicaps and other bull$hit that doesn't make them better.

Everyone wants to talk about eyes, stance, stroke.....I will use Keith McCready as an example. He was a great player. But watching his stroke is almost painful. Nobody should play as well as he does with that goofy side arm stroke. Keith was a champion because he played and played and played.

Like you Lou, everyone wants to be a champion but nobody wants to put the time in.

That's my 2 cents.

Ken

Ken, you stated it well.

It's this is really the crux of the issue -- you want to play well, do the work.

Lou Figueroa
  
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