Low D shafts vs shaft pivot point

Dan White · May 2, 2020

Can someone "unconfuse" me?

I recall reading years ago how people with low deflection shafts had a pivot point back where their grip is so they used front hand english. Now I'm reading that the newest low D shafts (Revo?) have pivot points around 12 or 13 inches, where the bridge hand is. That means back hand english would work well.

If that is the case then what's the difference between the low deflection shafts and my 55 year old shaft with a 12" pivot point? Is a low D simply low deflection across the whole range of bridge lengths and shot speeds with the actual pivot point being the ideal? Pretty sure I'm missing something.

Thanks for any comments.

garczar · May 2, 2020

Dan White said:
Can someone "unconfuse" me?

I recall reading years ago how people with low deflection shafts had a pivot point back where their grip is so they used front hand english. Now I'm reading that the newest low D shafts (Revo?) have pivot points around 12 or 13 inches, where the bridge hand is. That means back hand english would work well.

If that is the case then what's the difference between the low deflection shafts and my 55 year old shaft with a 12" pivot point? Is a low D simply low deflection across the whole range of bridge lengths and shot speeds with the actual pivot point being the ideal? Pretty sure I'm missing something.

Thanks for any comments.

Pivot point has never been back where you grip the cue. Standard shafts are usually in the 7-9" range and LD in that 10-13" range. Better than i put it : https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/natural-pivot-length/

buckshotshoey · May 2, 2020

Pretty sure you misunderstood the Pivot Point on a low deflection shaft. There's no way that Pivot Point could be back at your grip hand. But, pivot Points are usually a little farther away from the tip then standard shafts. My Predator shaft is right around the 12 to 13 inch mark. My standard Maple Viking shaft is right around the 9-inch area.

Backhand English and front hand English are used in different situations. For instance, if you are shooting medium to fast speed, usually use backhand English. If you are shooting less than medium speed or shots on the slow side, or LONG shots at faster speeds, you use forward hand English.

Dr Dave to the rescue......this vid explains the uses of BHE and FHE....

https://billiards.colostate.edu/normal-video/nv-e-2/

Cornerman · May 2, 2020

Dan White said:
Can someone "unconfuse" me?

I recall reading years ago how people with low deflection shafts had a pivot point back where their grip is so they used front hand english. Now I'm reading that the newest low D shafts (Revo?) have pivot points around 12 or 13 inches, where the bridge hand is. That means back hand english would work well.

If that is the case then what's the difference between the low deflection shafts and my 55 year old shaft with a 12" pivot point? Is a low D simply low deflection across the whole range of bridge lengths and shot speeds with the actual pivot point being the ideal? Pretty sure I'm missing something.

Thanks for any comments.

This will shock some people. PM me for more info if this is too confusing.

There are two pivot point. There always have been.

Natural Pivot Point
Effective Pivot Point

When people 20 years ago talked about long ass pivot points and using only front hand english, they were addressing the Effective Pivot Point, which addresses squirt and SIT. The Natural Pivot Point only addresses squirt.

If you’re a pivot aimer, you’d use the Effective Pivot Point, but would logically adjust that point when you consider swerve (lengthen with more swerve). The Effective Pivot Point is longer... often much longer than the Natural PP. You determine the Effective Pivot Point using the Aim & Pivot Test.

This is a 20 year concept that somehow got muddled up along the way.

Dan White · May 2, 2020

Cornerman said:
This will shock some people. PM me for more info if this is too confusing.

There are two pivot point. There always have been.

Natural Pivot Point
Effective Pivot Point

When people 20 years ago talked about long ass pivot points and using only front hand english, they were addressing the Effective Pivot Point, which addresses squirt and SIT. The Natural Pivot Point only addresses squirt.

If you’re a pivot aimer, you’d use the Effective Pivot Point, but would logically adjust that point when you consider swerve (lengthen with more swerve). The Effective Pivot Point is longer... often much longer than the Natural PP. You determine the Effective Pivot Point using the Aim & Pivot Test.

This is a 20 year concept that somehow got muddled up along the way.

Good point, thanks.

So what is the advantage of a low D shaft if my current shaft has a 12" pivot point?

Cornerman · May 2, 2020

Dan White said:
Good point, thanks.

So what is the advantage of a low D shaft if my current shaft has a 12" pivot point?

Two part question .

If your current shaft has an Effective Pivot Point of 12”, then no squirt advantage. But I think the Effective Pivot Point of a Revo is longer, for my Revo. It’s Natural Pivot Point might be around 12”. Plus, the Effectice PP is highly dependent on ball conditions.

Maybe you need a 3rd party to test your cue? Natural PP is really the best way to test just the shaft.

336Robin · May 2, 2020

The pivot point on maple shaft is most times shorter than an LD shaft. I chose my brand of LD based on the pivot point which
is my usual pivot point at around 12 inches from the tip. Some LDs are very much longer. Regular maple at 12.80 was around 12 inches and was what I was used to.
I play with Jacoby Hybrids at around 12.8 to 12.9

Dan White said:
Can someone "unconfuse" me?

I recall reading years ago how people with low deflection shafts had a pivot point back where their grip is so they used front hand english. Now I'm reading that the newest low D shafts (Revo?) have pivot points around 12 or 13 inches, where the bridge hand is. That means back hand english would work well.

If that is the case then what's the difference between the low deflection shafts and my 55 year old shaft with a 12" pivot point? Is a low D simply low deflection across the whole range of bridge lengths and shot speeds with the actual pivot point being the ideal? Pretty sure I'm missing something.

Thanks for any comments.

Dan White · May 2, 2020

Cornerman said:
You determine the Effective Pivot Point using the Aim & Pivot Test.

I thought the natural pivot point was determined with the Aim & Pivot test if it's the one I'm thinking of. In that test you hit rather hard to eliminate swerve and try to duplicate a straight shot by shooting between two object balls just over a ball diameter away from each other.

Dan White · May 2, 2020

buckshotshoey said:
My Predator shaft is right around the 12 to 13 inch mark. My standard Maple Viking shaft is right around the 9-inch area.

So if you bridge at 12.5" with your Predator do you get the same performance out of your maple shaft when bridging at 9"?

What happens if you happen to bridge each shaft, say 3 or 4 inches closer or farther away from the pivot point (or if you want let's say 25% closer or farther for each shaft)? Does the Predator squirt less than the maple then? What about if both shafts had the same pivot point, one being Predator and the other a maple shaft?

Lots of question, I know...

Cornerman · May 2, 2020

Dan White said:
I thought the natural pivot point was determined with the Aim & Pivot test if it's the one I'm thinking of. In that test you hit rather hard to eliminate swerve and try to duplicate a straight shot by shooting between two object balls just over a ball diameter away from each other.

Effective uses an object ball; Natural does not.

marikian · May 2, 2020

How do you find the pivot point on your cue?

Geosnooker · May 2, 2020

Favourite comments on deflection

Ronnie OSullivan. When asked about deflection.

‘If don’t know. I played 20 years before I ever heard of it.’ Then he looked over at
Steve Davis, and Davis shrugged and answered ‘I just hit the ball’.

buckshotshoey · May 2, 2020

marikian said:
How do you find the pivot point on your cue?

The link in post #2 by Garczar

AkGuy · May 2, 2020

Oh boy...

You guys are making me feel dumber then a fence post. What the heck is front and back hand English? Must be something I been doing for years and didn't know I was doing.

Patrick Johnson · May 2, 2020

The "pure" or "natural" Pivot Point is the point on any shaft where it crosses the shot line when correctly angled to correct for Squirt alone, angling the shaft in the "equal opposite" direction for the amount of "pure" Squirt it produces. If that's all there was to it, aiming with side spin would be a breeze: we'd learn our Natural Pivot Point and pivot our shafts there in whatever manner we liked best.

But Squirt rarely comes alone - except for very short or very hard shots, there's always some Swerve (a small amount of massé) curving the CB back toward the target - this reduces the cue angle you need for most shots, but by different amounts for different shot speeds, distances, cue elevations and even the conditions of balls, cloth and humidity.

Spin Induced Throw is another aiming factor, but usually a much smaller effect than Squirt and Swerve, and it can increase or reduce the aim angle depending on the direction of spin, and by different amounts depending on cut angle, amount of spin, shot speed and ball conditions.

The "effective" Pivot Point is whatever point on the shaft needs to be directly over the shot line to properly angle the cue to account for all of these combined effects for any given shot.

That all sounds very technical and tidy, but reality, as always, is messy. Since all of these effects (except Squirt alone) change with each shot, techniques like Backhand English (pivoting the cue at its "natural" Pivot Point near the bridge) and Fronthand English (pivoting the cue at the grip hand) rarely work exactly and must be "customized" for each actual shot using "experienced estimation", AKA "feel". This is sometimes (confusingly) called "Parallel English" (don't get me started) and is usually what's really meant, consciously or not, by Fronthand English.

pj <- tl;dr - it depends
chgo

buckshotshoey · May 2, 2020

AkGuy said:
You guys are making me feel dumber then a fence post. What the heck is front and back hand English? Must be something I been doing for years and didn't know I was doing.

Post #2 and #3. Click the links we provided. Dr Dave explains it best

buckshotshoey · May 2, 2020

Dan White said:
So if you bridge at 12.5" with your Predator do you get the same performance out of your maple shaft when bridging at 9"?

What happens if you happen to bridge each shaft, say 3 or 4 inches closer or farther away from the pivot point (or if you want let's say 25% closer or farther for each shaft)? Does the Predator squirt less than the maple then? What about if both shafts had the same pivot point, one being Predator and the other a maple shaft?

Lots of question, I know...

Mathematics. Let's say you move the butt of your cue to the side 1 inch. With a 12 inch pivot point, the tip will move more in the opposite direction farther then if you use a shorter bridge.

Think in degrees of angle. If you pick the same contact point on the cue ball with both the 9 inch and 12 inch pivot lengths, the cue will be askew by more degrees of angle with the 9 inch bridge then the 12 inch.

Why is this important. I think because the pivot point of a low deflection shaft is farther back on the shaft, you dont have to use as many degrees of angle on the cue to get the same result as a standard shaft. Think of the advantages there.

The pivot length, re read the link that Garczar gave you. Dr Dave explains it better then I can.

Dan White · May 3, 2020

buckshotshoey said:
Mathematics. Let's say you move the butt of your cue to the side 1 inch. With a 12 inch pivot point, the tip will move more in the opposite direction farther then if you use a shorter bridge.

Think in degrees of angle. If you pick the same contact point on the cue ball with both the 9 inch and 12 inch pivot lengths, the cue will be askew by more degrees of angle with the 9 inch bridge then the 12 inch.

Why is this important. I think because the pivot point of a low deflection shaft is farther back on the shaft, you dont have to use as many degrees of angle on the cue to get the same result as a standard shaft. Think of the advantages there.

The pivot length, re read the link that Garczar gave you. Dr Dave explains it better then I can.

So if I have a Predator LD shaft and a maple shaft, both with 12.5" pivot points is there any advantage to having the Predator?

Dan White · May 3, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
The "pure" or "natural" Pivot Point is the point on any shaft where it crosses the shot line when correctly angled to correct for Squirt alone, angling the shaft in the "equal opposite" direction for the amount of "pure" Squirt it produces. If that's all there was to it, aiming with side spin would be a breeze: we'd learn our Natural Pivot Point and pivot our shafts there in whatever manner we liked best.

But Squirt rarely comes alone - except for very short or very hard shots, there's always some Swerve (a small amount of massé) curving the CB back toward the target - this reduces the cue angle you need for most shots, but by different amounts for different shot speeds, distances, cue elevations and even the conditions of balls, cloth and humidity.

Spin Induced Throw is another aiming factor, but usually a much smaller effect than Squirt and Swerve, and it can increase or reduce the aim angle depending on the direction of spin, and by different amounts depending on cut angle, amount of spin, shot speed and ball conditions.

The "effective" Pivot Point is whatever point on the shaft needs to be directly over the shot line to properly angle the cue to account for all of these combined effects for any given shot.

That all sounds very technical and tidy, but reality, as always, is messy. Since all of these effects (except Squirt alone) change with each shot, techniques like Backhand English (pivoting the cue at its "natural" Pivot Point near the bridge) and Fronthand English (pivoting the cue at the grip hand) rarely work exactly and must be "customized" for each actual shot using "experienced estimation", AKA "feel". This is sometimes (confusingly) called "Parallel English" (don't get me started) and is usually what's really meant, consciously or not, by Fronthand English.

pj <- tl;dr - it depends
chgo

Welcome back, PJ! I got all that. My original question, beyond the question of BHE and FHE is whether there is any benefit to a new LD shaft over an old maple shaft if both have the same "natural" pivot point. Also, I assume the effective pivot point would be difficult to measure. Is there a test for effective pivot point?

336Robin · May 3, 2020

Dan White said:
Welcome back, PJ! I got all that. My original question, beyond the question of BHE and FHE is whether there is any benefit to a new LD shaft over an old maple shaft if both have the same "natural" pivot point. Also, I assume the effective pivot point would be difficult to measure. Is there a test for effective pivot point?

They both can utilize a pivot point but they are not in the same place on the shaft. The natural maple pivot point is closer to the tip the thicker it is.
The ld shaft is extremely much farther away. If you would be using bhe for instance you would have to adjust your pivot point to the right place to get the most from the bhe.

When not using bhe with your normal bridge length (not necc the correct pivot point) then you're subject to the squirt of the kind of shaft you're playing with.

A regular maple shaft is going to have cause more cue ball squirt than a LD. If you want less squirt you have to go LD.

Low D shafts vs shaft pivot point

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