English on shots without rail

leste said:

I'm a beginner starting to learn how to use English and I noticed that many players use English on shots where the cue ball doesn't hit a rail after. For example, using draw and outside English on the nine ball with no scratch possibility.

For these kind of straightforward shots, is it better to hit off center? I'm used to adjusting for throw by adjusting the line and still hitting center ball.

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I'm with you. I stay away from any side spin unless called for.

randyg

Can someone explain why you would use side spin if you are not hitting a rail to get position?

kaznj said:

Can someone explain why you would use side spin if you are not hitting a rail to get position?

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i am not an instructor
but since you can change the contact point because of the spin you can change the tangent line
therefore change how the cue ball comes off the object bal

Outside english avoids skidding. At a beginning level, use center because there are fewer variables. Once you progress to the point where your pocketing % is the same regardless, always use a touch of english to beat the skid.

When you get to the point where missing really matters, always eliminate the chance of a skid whenever possible.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

There are several good reasons to use English to make a ball without the cue ball contacting a rail. One reason is if the object is a little offline english can be used to make the ball and keep the cue ball go straight after contact. Also helpful in the same scenario if you can only hit the object ball straight and it only needs a slight cut to go in. Another reason is when you slow roll the cue ball on a cut shot and use outside english to counter contact throw. If you shoot a cut shot a little too firm a little inside will keep it from over cutting the object ball. Lastly you can slightly increase or decrease the distance the cue ball will travel after object ball contact without having to change stroke speed. Outside will give more distance while inside will give you less which can be useful when precise shape is needed.

I'm not an instructor.
I use outside on the majority of my shots.
With my cue, I can aim at the horn and use the whole, say 4.5 inches of the pocket. If I apply a little bit of spin, it throws just inside the horn. 1 tip will throw closer to center, 2 tips to the other side and so on. I feel I can only miss these shots with no spin or max English. It really maximizes the pocket for me.
Yes, speed and distance will effect this as well. A little bit of practice and you will have a great shot in your toolbox. I use this method for soft to medium shots.
It also helps for holding the cue ball, changing the lines.
I've watched so many pros playing, and it seems outside is always their number 1 choice when available.
Dirty balls are a pain though with this method.
My .02

I am the polar opposite of an instructor

But I recently was directed to a YouTube video by a great instructor, where he discusses, and more importantly SHOWS what's going on with spin. And what isn't going on. And side doesn't matter until it hits a rail.

I can't figure out how to copy and paste on my phone, so no link just YouTube Fargo Billiards, CueBall Control Part 1.

Mike Page describes and shows this very, very clearly. A big eye opener for me.

***edit*** perhaps there may be something to side and squirt,throw, skid and all that. Mike doesn't address those things. But the OP says he is a beginner, and I think this is a great starting point regarding the subject.

leste said:

I'm a beginner starting to learn how to use English and I noticed that many players use English on shots where the cue ball doesn't hit a rail after. For example, using draw and outside English on the nine ball with no scratch possibility.

For these kind of straightforward shots, is it better to hit off center? I'm used to adjusting for throw by adjusting the line and still hitting center ball.

Click to expand...

leste,

You've received some good info. The bottom line is that english can be a very valuable tool. It can at times be the difference between making or missing a shot. It may not be the shot you are shooting. It may be your next shot that you did not get position on. Using english allows one to cheat to one side of a pocket, even 'aim' outside of the pocket & still make a ball & get the position that is sometimes required for the next shot.

Like randyG said 'when called for'.

As to the last part of your question, the answer could be any one of the senarios you have already been given or it could simply be a comfort level for the player. If they have been shooting many shots with english they may not want to go to a center hit for the money ball & have to make different calculations as you suggest that you do for your center ball hit.

Using english is not that difficult & can be very valuable at times. I learned it when I was 13 years old with no outside help. If a 13 year old can learn it, I would think that anyone with decent hand eye coordination can learn it. Just play around with it & learn its capabilities. Then just as important is to learn when to use it & how to use it properly.

Regards & the Best Of Luck with it.

Play Well,

kanecalgary said:

I'm not an instructor.
I use outside on the majority of my shots.
With my cue, I can aim at the horn and use the whole, say 4.5 inches of the pocket. If I apply a little bit of spin, it throws just inside the horn. 1 tip will throw closer to center, 2 tips to the other side and so on. I feel I can only miss these shots with no spin or max English. It really maximizes the pocket for me.
Yes, speed and distance will effect this as well. A little bit of practice and you will have a great shot in your toolbox. I use this method for soft to medium shots.
It also helps for holding the cue ball, changing the lines.
I've watched so many pros playing, and it seems outside is always their number 1 choice when available.
Dirty balls are a pain though with this method.
My .02

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This is what I do as well. :thumbup:

Larry...Remember, there is NO tangent line, unless the CB is sliding at contact with the OB. I did not read that into the OP's post. I agree with Randyg...beginners need to learn vertical axis pool FIRST, before messing around with sidespin.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

bbb said:

i am not an instructor
but since you can change the contact point because of the spin you can change the tangent line
therefore change how the cue ball comes off the object bal

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It's NEVER too early to learn anything.

JMHO

Well I guess you all can call me slow, because I did not learn to run before I crawled.

Now to the topic at hand.....

IMHO I think a beginner is best served to learn how to control the cueball by first learning the vertical axis first......and learn it well.

There was an interesting thread a while back on this same subject by WillieBetMore as he reviewed some time he spent with Ed Deska who picked up on Willie's lack of foundation in that area.

Again, learn to crawl before you run.

ENGLISH! said:

It's NEVER too early to learn anything.

JMHO

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I am very curious.

I have a question for ALL instructors here on AZB.

When would each of you say that one should start learning how to use english?

By english, I mean anything besides not on the exact verticle axis, say like a 1:30 or 4:30 hit on the cue ball.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

.................

Bob Jewett said:

I think even beginners should learn about side spin. In particular they need to understand both the uses and the pitfalls. The latter will show them the value of not using side spin.

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So, are you saying that one should never intentionally utilize any side spin?

Also, can you elaborate on the pitfalls of which you speak?

ENGLISH! said:

I am very curious.

I have a question for ALL instructors here on AZB.

When would each of you say that one should start learning how to use english?

By english, I mean anything besides not on the exact verticle axis, say like a 1:30 or 4:30 hit on the cue ball.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Click to expand...

Once they can pocket balls fairly consistently, then I think it's ok to try to pocket balls with side spin.

For some players it's pretty early on. For others it takes more time.

ENGLISH! said:

I am very curious.

I have a question for ALL instructors here on AZB.

When would each of you say that one should start learning how to use english?

By english, I mean anything besides not on the exact verticle axis, say like a 1:30 or 4:30 hit on the cue ball.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Click to expand...

It depends for sure also on the student: There are of course *different types* of beginners

I prefer also to start with explaining the vertical axis principle. By explaining it you should also transfer the necessary components WHY it is so important to develope a repeatable straight stroke to send Whitey from point A to point B. As soon as the student understands that giving unwanted english causes misses, the student learnt a very important thing. Just showing him examples "what happens if..." is a great help.

If someone really understands the principle of vertical axis and tangent-line, you can go on with some general thumbrules about english. From then you can transfer step by step more and more knowledge.

The pitfalls Bob Jewett shown up so nicley are a thanksful thing which will open the eyes of a student...if you explained the right things before ^^

To just tell a student to *not use english* without giving any information is in my opinion the wrong choice. Bit too rigid and stubborn.
(and wrong imho).

lg from overseas.

Ingo