APA Sandbagging

WoodyMPW said:

Isn't that why once you are ranked a 6 you would never drop below a 5 in the APA? I thought I read that somewhere. Unless you lose an arm or eye-ball.

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I defer to your knowledge of the APA guidelines, maybe the person I am referring-to is a 5 and not a 6, but you get the picture.

The incentive in APA IS Vegas. When I first started playing APA, it was explained to me in emphatic terms that "It is all about Vegas." "It doesn't make any difference what happens during the season. We just need to make it into the play-offs."

I would rather play one on one without the handicap system and time-outs and coaching/instructions from other team members.

I watch some teams call a time-out and plot what seems to be a mission to outer space. IMO, if a player needs that much instruction, they aren't going to make the shot.

Type79 said:

I watch some teams call a time-out and plot what seems to be a mission to outer space. IMO, if a player needs that much instruction, they aren't going to make the shot.

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I love it when they try to be all secret and whisper like they're trying to escape from prison and I'm the guard, that cracks me up. I think what they don't get is that no matter how much instruction the give or get, the player still has to execute the shot and the plan A good percentage of the time they can't or don't have the required skill to do do it anyhow.

WoodyMPW said:

Isn't that why once you are ranked a 6 you would never drop below a 5 in the APA? I thought I read that somewhere. Unless you lose an arm or eye-ball.

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You are correct in stating that no one can go down more than 1 level...unless they file a medical exemption....then its no guarantee you will be allowed to go down.


Here is some thing else posters on here may not realize. If you happen to go to Vegas you are locked at that handicap for ever. You can go up but will never go down at the national level. According to the way I read it this is just at the national level and you may can go back down 1 level at the local level. Not in my area though...our lo locks in your handicap at what ever you achieve at the nationals

Our lo carries it even further. You are locked at the local level at what ever level you achieve at a regional qualifer.

tjshaw02 said:

I would say that if you are actively playing to win everytime you get to the table and not purposely losing then sandbagging is not part of the equation.

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i have never purposely lost a match...heck i like winning too much. :grin-square:

the thing is i try harder some nights than i do others..especially playoffs...tri cups etc.

if i really want to win i play a lot of safes. if i want to win but it really dont mean nothing if i lose i do not play many safes ...i just try to run out on them.

i will give you a couple of examples.
last sunday i really wanted to win against another 5...he is one of those who thinks he is better than he really is. i won 4-0 by playing 12 safes on him.

tue night i played a 6. i lost hill-hill and i on;y played 1 safe. i really tried to win but i was not wanting to play a shit load of safes to do it. it was the last match of the night and it was 12;00 when we finished/ i had to get up at 6,00 so i did not want to drag the match out.

in some peoples eyes i might be a sand bagger because i did not play any safes in the 2nd match and as a result it may have cost me a win. how ever in my eyes i was not sand bagging because i never missed a ball intentionaly and tried to honestly win.

heck i have had a 40 inning match in cities where i beat a 7 by 4-2 because i played 25 safes to his 12 and yea i was called a sand bagger.

lorider said:

i have never purposely lost a match...heck i like winning too much. :grin-square:

the thing is i try harder some nights than i do others..especially playoffs...tri cups etc.

if i really want to win i play a lot of safes. if i want to win but it really dont mean nothing if i lose i do not play many safes ...i just try to run out on them.

i will give you a couple of examples.
last sunday i really wanted to win against another 5...he is one of those who thinks he is better than he really is. i won 4-0 by playing 12 safes on him.

tue night i played a 6. i lost hill-hill and i on;y played 1 safe. i really tried to win but i was not wanting to play a shit load of safes to do it. it was the last match of the night and it was 12;00 when we finished/ i had to get up at 6,00 so i did not want to drag the match out.

in some peoples eyes i might be a sand bagger because i did not play any safes in the 2nd match and as a result it may have cost me a win. how ever in my eyes i was not sand bagging because i never missed a ball intentionaly and tried to honestly win.

heck i have had a 40 inning match in cities where i beat a 7 by 4-2 because i played 25 safes to his 12 and yea i was called a sand bagger.

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25 safes, holy.. nice patience.

I do the same - attack mode unless it gets close or is important, then it's fight to win.

Banks said:

25 safes, holy.. nice patience.

I do the same - attack mode unless it gets close or is important, then it's fight to win.

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believe me ...i don't have that kind of patience during a regular league night knowing i gotta get up and go to work the next day. unless its like you said...important.

take last night ..... my fri night team is in 1st place with 1 week to go. 2nd place team is 5 points behind us so we need every point we can get to stay ahead. i won the lag and broke and ran 6 balls then my opponent ran the table.

i thought to my self ..i can not afford any more racks like the 1st one so i relied on the 2nd most important piece of advice i have ever received playing pool. that advice was ...if you can not run out , play safe. i won the next 4 in a row and the match by playing 7 safes.

Sandbagging!

DAVE_M said:

I quit an 8-ball team, because of that exact problem with the APA. My captain had told me to lose the next two matches and I told him I quit. It's a problem all over the country. It never ends well for anyone.

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When the APA (formally Busch League) started here in Charleston, SC some friends and I started a team and we played our best every match and let the handicaps end up where they should be. Eventually our handicaps kept rising until we couldn't meet the "23" rule anymore and stay together as a team of good friends. That's the whole plan of APA which is to hook people on playing pool, then handicap them high enough so one team has to split up and form two or more teams to stay under the "23" rule. It's a smart way to make the league grow and make more money for the ones in charge of the APA.

Unfortunately there are players who figured out how to get around the "23" rule and they are pretty smart about it. I've witnessed team captains with calculators figuring wins and losses on one of their players so they can give them instructions to win or lose and to run up the innings in the match. Working the system to keep players handicaps down makes them hard to beat in the tournaments when they meet honest teams in the tournaments. The teams that are under handicapped play just well enough to win and not show their true speed to the other teams and that keeps the opposing honest team captains from complaining to the LO!

Sandbagging has ruined pool leagues, Period. It's not fun to play a match against a "4" handicap player who should be a "6" or higher and you can tell if you pay attention that he or she is missing shots on purpose and missing position on purpose so they can't get out and not look too obvious. It's turned the tournaments with the trip to Las Vegas into "BS".

The last time I played in APA (many years ago) we were playing in the tournament that the division winners won trips to Las Vegas. We were matched up against an out of town team in our first match and we got a shock. We started with a "4" handicap against their "4" and it was a mismatch to say the least. Their "4" should have been a "6" at least and he destroyed our "4". Then we got to see their female "2" and just for example she banked three balls in one game on her way to running out that game. Of course we lost without winning a match and we went to the LO and complained, but he blew us off as complaining because we lost and that was that. It was also my last time ever playing APA or any other league of that type. The sandbaggers have figured out how to beat the system and in the process have ruined handicap pool!

I play in a local 9 ball league now which is made up mostly of people like myself who were sick of the Sandbagging etc. in the big leagues. We have 3 man teams with three handicaps AA, A, and B skill levels. The players are handicapped by the players through a player review board and there isn't any sandbagging. The matches are made up of three players from each team playing a race to 9 and the scores are kept to see which team comes out on top each night. The matches are AA vs AA, B vs B, etc. it's a lot of fun and you match up against someone who plays your speed each week. No more APA etc for me!

jeremy8000 said:

I attribute this to rampant sandbagging in the first area. Sandbaggers not only manipulate their own handicaps, but indirectly impact those of the league in which they participate, particularly in terms of elevated innings and failure to mark defensive shots. I believe this causes a wide variance in exactly what defines a skill range from one APA market to another.

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This may or may not be true, but the bottom line is that if people are scoring the way they should be and marking defensive shots when they should be (even if the other player does not call it) then the ratings will be consistent across the nation as better players average less innings regardless of area. The reason being is that your rating is based on your innings along with your wins. Defensive shots reduce innings, as they should, and it keeps your average innings lower. Losing a match has no bearing on your rating whatsoever no matter how many games you take them to.

I am a stickler on this to the point that if I see a 6 and 7 or even good 5's choose a shoot that allows them to make a ball but leaves them bad for their next I will still mark it as a defensive shot even if they made it. Why? Player's at that level would have choose a smarter strategic path that would have allowed them to keep shooting after they made that ball. I also watch for strategic advantages. If I see a player miss a shot I look and see if they benefited from it (tying up balls, moving to a breakout, putting cue ball in a place making their opponent's shot very hard). If they did, I mark it as a defensive. If they did not, then I assume they simply missed it as we all do some times. You especially need to watch if they have a "good player" coaching on the sidelines between shots regardless of their skill.

I will be heading to Vegas in a couple days and I look forward to seeing how the ratings are per my "standards" as I have only dealt with the same 100 or so people in my area since I started playing a couple years ago. However, I believe through my experience I can watch, as many other good players on here probably can, any player play a game or 2 and I can tell you what they probably should be rated based on the way they think and their cue ball control as it is those 2 things alone that separate players once they are able to make balls. I think it is those 2 things that are what players that sandbag are going to suddenly start doing so well come tournament time that aides their team and it is on the APA staff to catch that and raise their rating instantly.

Skippy27 said:

This may or may not be true, but the bottom line is that if people are scoring the way they should be and marking defensive shots when they should be (even if the other player does not call it) then the ratings will be consistent across the nation as better players average less innings regardless of area. The reason being is that your rating is based on your innings along with your wins. Defensive shots reduce innings, as they should, and it keeps your average innings lower. Losing a match has no bearing on your rating whatsoever no matter how many games you take them to.

I am a stickler on this to the point that if I see a 6 and 7 or even good 5's choose a shoot that allows them to make a ball but leaves them bad for their next I will still mark it as a defensive shot even if they made it. Why? Player's at that level would have choose a smarter strategic path that would have allowed them to keep shooting after they made that ball. I also watch for strategic advantages. If I see a player miss a shot I look and see if they benefited from it (tying up balls, moving to a breakout, putting cue ball in a place making their opponent's shot very hard). If they did, I mark it as a defensive. If they did not, then I assume they simply missed it as we all do some times. You especially need to watch if they have a "good player" coaching on the sidelines between shots regardless of their skill.

I will be heading to Vegas in a couple days and I look forward to seeing how the ratings are per my "standards" as I have only dealt with the same 100 or so people in my area since I started playing a couple years ago. However, I believe through my experience I can watch, as many other good players on here probably can, any player play a game or 2 and I can tell you what they probably should be rated based on the way they think and their cue ball control as it is those 2 things alone that separate players once they are able to make balls. I think it is those 2 things that are what players that sandbag are going to suddenly start doing so well come tournament time that aides their team and it is on the APA staff to catch that and raise their rating instantly.

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I agree with the fact that people should be scoring properly, but definitely don't feel that others should be making decisions for others on what out that they should be taking and marking those as defensive shots.

Sometimes players make horrible decisions on bad days and sometimes they accidentally step into a runout. That doesn't mean they should be rated higher or lower. I definitely don't play a standard/expected game. I shy away from shots that others would jump at, while setting up for shots that others can't be forced to shoot.

An example of your good intentions would be something that happened a while back with a friend of mine. I was messing around in Bar A. He comes over from Bar B to tell me about this amazing player that beat him(or maybe someone else). The person shot better than myself and had better CB control than another 7 friend. After he told me the guy's name, I had to laugh. It was a decent 5, maybe a 6, that wouldn't in a million years want to play against my friend or I. Just happened he had a decent night and my buddy takes things a wee bit too far.

You may think my 8b game is strange, but it works well for me. So, leaving a couple of strategic balls in place for breakouts and whatnot shout not be considered defensive because I'm not shooting them. Those are completely offensive and are meant for a runout. Meanwhile, you may think my 9b game sucks.. and it does.. but that doesn't mean those missed balls/leaves are defensive shots.

See you in Vegas!

Skippy27 said:

This may or may not be true, but the bottom line is that if people are scoring the way they should be and marking defensive shots when they should be (even if the other player does not call it) then the ratings will be consistent across the nation as better players average less innings regardless of area. The reason being is that your rating is based on your innings along with your wins. Defensive shots reduce innings, as they should, and it keeps your average innings lower. Losing a match has no bearing on your rating whatsoever no matter how many games you take them to.

I am a stickler on this to the point that if I see a 6 and 7 or even good 5's choose a shoot that allows them to make a ball but leaves them bad for their next I will still mark it as a defensive shot even if they made it. Why? Player's at that level would have choose a smarter strategic path that would have allowed them to keep shooting after they made that ball. I also watch for strategic advantages. If I see a player miss a shot I look and see if they benefited from it (tying up balls, moving to a breakout, putting cue ball in a place making their opponent's shot very hard). If they did, I mark it as a defensive. If they did not, then I assume they simply missed it as we all do some times. You especially need to watch if they have a "good player" coaching on the sidelines between shots regardless of their skill.

I will be heading to Vegas in a couple days and I look forward to seeing how the ratings are per my "standards" as I have only dealt with the same 100 or so people in my area since I started playing a couple years ago. However, I believe through my experience I can watch, as many other good players on here probably can, any player play a game or 2 and I can tell you what they probably should be rated based on the way they think and their cue ball control as it is those 2 things alone that separate players once they are able to make balls. I think it is those 2 things that are what players that sandbag are going to suddenly start doing so well come tournament time that aides their team and it is on the APA staff to catch that and raise their rating instantly.

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So if I'm a 6 or a 7 (or a good 5, good by your standard) and I play a shot and make it but hook myself, you mark that as a defensive shot? Or if I'm not taking the path you think I should be taking, your thought is that I'm play defense or sandbagging?

Someone said they played a 4 that should be a 6.
I'd be interested in hearing AZ's gut-check on hit to gauge a skill level.

From what I've seen, a 4 (8 ball) has no stroke. Can't draw the ball two feet. I've seen a few 5's with a stroke but those were reckless players that fire away, send the CB flying around, and miss a lot. They are mostly good shot makers.

A 6 is the first level where a player has both a stroke and some level of CB control.

The only 5 I ever saw that fit my above description of a 6, was an admitted sandbagger.

Celophanewrap said:

I think it's sort of a glass half empty half full kind of thing. In my experience all Valleys are different. After set up you could measure and find that a Valley is level at every point but when you play on it the ball will roll funny. Whether it's the felt or the slate or the curve of the earth... or whatever, I have never found two that play exactly the same. Two identical Valley tables set up side by side in the same room by the same mechanic will play different. You set up a couple of Diamonds in different pool rooms that have been leveled and they will generally be consistent. What gives the Diamond players an advantage is you could say the cream always rises to the top. I think you rarely would find a Diamond table in a bar or somewhere where pool was an activity that goes with your beer. In bars you find mostly Valleys, but as much as a Diamond player would try to control whitey on a Valley you will get some odd rolls, the Valley player will adjust a little more quickly or in many (not all) circumstances hit the ball too hard to care what kind of table it is.
Personally I like the Valleys, each has it's own personality and it's what I have always played on. I enjoy the Diamonds and once I adjust to the speed of the table I'm fine, but for the bar game, overall I like the Valleys.

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When you say "bar game", do you mean a game played on looser equipment where a weaker player has a greater chance to win ? Or does this have another meaning ? Sad to think a "bar game" is the standard for some leagues.

jeffj2h said:

Someone said they played a 4 that should be a 6.
I'd be interested in hearing AZ's gut-check on hit to gauge a skill level.

From what I've seen, a 4 (8 ball) has no stroke. Can't draw the ball two feet. I've seen a few 5's with a stroke but those were reckless players that fire away, send the CB flying around, and miss a lot. They are mostly good shot makers.

A 6 is the first level where a player has both a stroke and some level of CB control.

The only 5 I ever saw that fit my above description of a 6, was an admitted sandbagger.

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I've seen 4s that can draw a ball. Sometimes anyways.. sometimes they even drew it where they wanted it.. other times they made they ball, too. Not sure i even had a stroke until i was a 9, or at least no draw.. and still working on it. There are many different things that make up a player and that's part of what makes our games different.

BigNBeefY said:

As a captain i always ask everyone to play their best...but that doesnt mean that i wont put my weaker or over ranked players in a matchup that they arent likely to win. Sandbagging is bad for any organized league but when we are on the verge of being numbers locked I will alter my strategy accordingly.

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+1

Agreed. Sorry, not sorry. But I've done it too.

After they raised my handicap THREE TIMES in one session after my lessons with Lee Brett we had 2 7's and 2 6's that were weaker. Well we made them 5's.

And now I can't even play 9 ball still because of the other 7 on my team.


I got called on sandbagging a lot when I was a 4/4-5/5 because of how good I was for that SL. But I just told them to look at my stats. 70%++ win rate all the time.

I'm still a 6 in 8 ball and have lost only one game in over 3 sessions.

Not my fault they don't raise me. I'll keep collecting my MVP trophies. I don't care. Only staying with APA til I get moved up again anyways to win a bet.

Lonestar_jim said:

When you say "bar game", do you mean a game played on looser equipment where a weaker player has a greater chance to win ? Or does this have another meaning ? Sad to think a "bar game" is the standard for some leagues.

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Yes, sad, very sad. But I generally play for fun and as a weaker player I have no illusions about ever hoping to compete with the likes of someone that is the consummate professional that you must be, and yes, if that's how you see fit to interpret my post I suppose that's exactly what I mean

Celophanewrap said:

Yes, sad, very sad. But I generally play for fun and as a weaker player I have no illusions about ever hoping to compete with the likes of someone that is the consummate professional that you must be, and yes, if that's how you see fit to interpret my post I suppose that's exactly what I mean

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Well I really was asking a question. As a consummate amateur I notice some of the same differences you mentioned between tables and among Valleys, etc. I just didn't know what a "bar game" is. Like it or not, Diamond makes bar tables. No judgment or interpretation. I play on both in 2 different leagues.

lorider said:

i have no doubt sand bagging goes on in apa. the thing is you will find sand baggers in any handicapped league.

i do doubt sand bagging is as rampant as some people on here would lead you to believe. you see...the apa is 4 times larger than the next largest league so its obvious you are 4 times as likely to encounter a sand bagger.

i also think it is blown out of proportion due to many people can not seem to fathom that some people just happen to be very inconsistent and have very good nights and very bad nights....like me. :grin:

i have been accused of being a sand bagger in apa more than once...i also have been accused of being under handicapped in napa more than once. funny how in any other league the term under handicapped is used but the term sand bagger is always used when the apa league is mentioned.

let me give you a perfect example of some one " me " being wrong fully accused of sand bagging.

2 weeks ago i faced a 7 in 9 ball on fri night.. i am a 5. i won 38-32. the following morning i went to a city tournament and had some one tell me that after i left fri night the 7 was going around to every one and complaining i was a sand bagger. i was told that he also called the lo from the pool hall and complained about me.

now here is the kicker..... 2 weeks prior to me beating him we faced his team in tri cups where i lost to his daughter in law. we were tied and it was the last match. when i lost it put us out of the tri cups.

here is the real kicker.... she is a friggin 2. now any one with half a brain knows you are not gonna lay low in one of the most important matches all year to keep your handicap down and then play like efren 2 weeks later in a regular session match that dont mean shit.

he did not say shit when his daughter in law puts us out of the trri cups but 2 weeks later he wants to complain to every one who will listen i am a sand bagger just because i beat him ?

i believe there are a whole lot of people in pool just like him who cry sand bagger when they lose.

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THIS. A million times this. I have no doubt there are sandbaggers, but I believe they are at about 1/10 of the amount people who play APA believe. Everyone has good and bad nights, so think about your best and worst and realize that everyone has that spectrum of difference of skill in their play. 5's will play like 3's sometimes, and other times, they'll play like 7's. The skill levels will go up and down because they are so inconsistent. So instead of getting mad because of a loss, look at your play (realistically) and see if you played well or if you missed some shots. Also, look at their play. Did they run into a bunch of balls but managed to get position every time? That's not usually going to happen. Some days we get good rolls AND shoot well, that's when a person plays 2 skills levels above their actual SL. When a person is getting bad rolls coupled with not playing well, that's when they play 2 SL's below their actual level. This, IMO, is usually the case and it's much more rare that people are asked/told to lose. I've played off and on in APA for 10 years and I've never been asked to lose or even extend the innings. I'm not naive tho, and understand some people do that, but I believe it's MUCH more rare than the league/APA bashers will have you believe.

jojopiff said:

THIS. A million times this. I have no doubt there are sandbaggers, but I believe they are at about 1/10 of the amount people who play APA believe. Everyone has good and bad nights, so think about your best and worst and realize that everyone has that spectrum of difference of skill in their play. 5's will play like 3's sometimes, and other times, they'll play like 7's. The skill levels will go up and down because they are so inconsistent. So instead of getting mad because of a loss, look at your play (realistically) and see if you played well or if you missed some shots. Also, look at their play. Did they run into a bunch of balls but managed to get position every time? That's not usually going to happen. Some days we get good rolls AND shoot well, that's when a person plays 2 skills levels above their actual SL. When a person is getting bad rolls coupled with not playing well, that's when they play 2 SL's below their actual level. This, IMO, is usually the case and it's much more rare that people are asked/told to lose. I've played off and on in APA for 10 years and I've never been asked to lose or even extend the innings. I'm not naive tho, and understand some people do that, but I believe it's MUCH more rare than the league/APA bashers will have you believe.

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Agree 100%. It never fails, Every time you happen to have a good night someone accuses you of sandbagging. I came to realize though that when that happens it sorta puts the fear of God into a player that used to beating you. Then they start to squeeze a little, maybe hold the stick a little tighter and create their own mistakes and give you makeable shots and you might win, then they accuse you of sandbagging when what has really happened is now you're in their head.

Lonestar_jim said:

Well I really was asking a question. As a consummate amateur I notice some of the same differences you mentioned between tables and among Valleys, etc. I just didn't know what a "bar game" is. Like it or not, Diamond makes bar tables. No judgment or interpretation. I play on both in 2 different leagues.

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Sorry if I mistook your post as being condescending. Sometimes I can get a bit defensive when it's not warranted, my apologies.
Well, to be truthful, yes, that is still exactly what I meant. The APA has a rule that the matches must be play using equipment made for billiards, but it has no standard for that equipment. You hope it's good and we'd all like to play on at least level tables, but unless it's a Diamond table (and sometimes even then) that rarely happens. So I guess you could call it "loser equipment." There was a VFW post here that had a team, so when we'd go to their place to play, it was on a table that measured 8' 7" and had a slatron bed. If you're not familiar with slatron it's basically a thick particle board. If you tried something like a jump shot or you had to strike downward at a ball there was a good chance you would dent the bed. The rails weren't really rubber but a flexible plastic and the cloth was stretchy like a nylon or rayon. Now I have a deep respect and appreciation for the Vets and I'd never go into their house and disrespect them, but that table was awful, but still, it was made for pocket billiards. Some of the Valleys in the bars are in pretty rough shape if they haven't been taken care of for several years and if you brush them the cloth might tear, but they are made for pocket billiards. So yes, sometimes it can be looser equipment and that can effect your game in an adverse way. I would hope it's not the standard, but it absolutely does happen.