The lack of professionalism

Drop The Rock

Drop The Rock

1652nd on AZ Money List
Silver Member
I am COMPLETELY bewildered by the attitude of some of the entrepreneurs/business

owners of AZ.

It completely blows my mind that there are guys on here who just talk **** all day and

act like kids when there business depends on their image just as much as their

product, if not more so.

What are you doing?

The troll debates are ridiculous. Do you guys just not understand

that this is the internet and what you say gets to be seen by everyone?

There are people who will book lessons and buy equipment despite the BS you type

but at the end of the day there are also people who won't. You can have the best

product on the planet but crappy customer service and poor PR can sink you.

The worst is bad mouthing a competitor, which doesn't seem to happen that

often but I'm sure there have been a few cases.

Even worse than that is bad mouthing someone who puts out a plethora of FREE

information whether its a marketing tool or not.
 
Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Drop The Rock said:
I am COMPLETELY bewildered by the attitude of some of the entrepreneurs/business

owners of AZ.

It completely blows my mind that there are guys on here who just talk **** all day and

act like kids when there business depends on their image just as much as their

product, if not more so.
Most of these entrepeneurs are one- or two man operations. They are not huge corporations, but rather enthusiastic individuals trying to make money doing what they love. They don't have advertising budgets etc. and they sell their products on word of mouth, mostly on performance.

What are you doing?

The troll debates are ridiculous. Do you guys just not understand

that this is the internet and what you say gets to be seen by everyone?

There are people who will book lessons and buy equipment despite the BS you type

but at the end of the day there are also people who won't. You can have the best

product on the planet but crappy customer service and poor PR can sink you.

The worst is bad mouthing a competitor, which doesn't seem to happen that

often but I'm sure there have been a few cases.
There have been several such cases. Some of which are ongoing. I doubt much harm has been done.

Even worse than that is bad mouthing someone who puts out a plethora of FREE

information whether its a marketing tool or not.
Click to expand...

I think you need to relax a little. There is a difference betwen major corporations and some guy knocking out products from his garage. People in the pool world are a bit different anyway, and not quite as easily offended as other customers groups. I realise that there are companies out there who would consider Bob Sagets humour too edgy for them, but lets face it: I doubt most players would care much if some tip maker/ cue maker or whatever has an online disagreement with another. Personally I wouldn't care even slightly.

I don't see eye to eye with John Barton most of the time, for example, but I wouldn't think twice about buying one of his cases. It's a good product, that's what matters and I think that holds true for most of the customers in the pool world. I dont' know anything about Mr. Moori, but I buy his tips.

You need to understand that these one man shops, are just that, one man. They earn their own money and are not responsible to shareholders (which are the ones that usually dictate policy indirectly) in major corporations. Behind that "brand name" of the one man shop is one man. Not some horde of soulless lawyers or pr people spewing out corporate jargon and polishing every word within an inch of its life.

It's good to see both the good and the bad sides of the people in the industry and interact with them as a proper human being, rather than getting robotic answers without any edge what so ever.

If tip maker A thinks tip maker B makes a lousy product, and has proof of that fact, I'd want to know. As for criticising Dr. Dave, I won't defend that, other than to say that the critique in this case comes from a person who happens to run a company, rather than some corporate entity. There is a difference there, I think. It's not like when Coca Cola has an ad and you notice that there is not a single black person/hasidic jew/disabled person or whatever special interest group you sympathize with and you instantly whine on the phone/email to try to extract an apology, or try to sue for monetary profit (like some people love to do). It's some guy saying those things, so how about confronting him the same way you would any other? It's not like making a tip/cue or whateve makes you some mega authority on all things in billiards.
 
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JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Guilty. But I prefer not to cower in fear and state my opinion without the slightest thought that I shouldn't because of some mythical lost future sale. I didn't get into business for myself so that I could be held hostage to public opinion.

If someone here doesn't like how I conduct myself there is a list of case makers and links to them on my site for them to go to.

Yet....I have found that for every person that has ever told me they won't buy from me because I won't be quiet and toe the line.....another person tells me they are buying from me precisely because I don't cower and pander to bullies.

It's called COMPETITION for a reason. In business if your competitor is just making shit up, telling people he builds quality, lies to his customers then you should call him on it. Otherwise it's UNFAIR competition. Just like if someone was doping in running and you weren't.

As the saying goes it ain't bragging if you can back it up and by the same token it ain't bad mouthing if it's true.

That said, I will say that I have long spoken to the owners of this site and told them my opinion on how it could have been better. People like me, who actually know a lot about part of this industry, would love to engage the membership and have good conversations with no animosity at all.

But when we get trolled and harassed we have three options. Ignore the jerks and continue to be professional and nice.... takes a lot of personal fortitude and zen. Leave and deprive the group of valuable content based on industry experience. Fight back and not take shit.

#2 is sad for the group. Everything you ever wanted to know about anything in pool could have been right here in one place from the source but most industry people can't stand it here because they have zero protection from being harassed.

#3 is not professional and creates an atmosphere of animosity and saps energy. It's one huge reason I don't come here much anymore. I just don't find it enjoyable when most of the really good people are gone and the most vocal ones left are often the trolls who ran the good people off. But as long as I do hang out here I refuse to take any shit off any person here. If that turns some of you off and you swear to never buy a JB Case then I guess I will have to live with it. The way I see it is that I can't lose what I never had and you can't buy my silence for the possible sale of a case. I would actually be ashamed of myself if I ever tried to control someone's speech by waving a dollar in front of them. Don't get me wrong, there are companies I don't support. Just this morning at the airport I made a conscious decision NOT to buy Nestle's bottled water precisely because of their corporate actions. The CEO of Nestle exercised his right to be an asshole and I chose not to buy their water.

So if anyone thinks I am an asshole they are more than welcome not to buy our cases. We make a couple thousand cases a year to serve a population of millions of pool players. I think we will be ok.

But you're right...option 1 is definitely the best choice.
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Another thing.....if many of the posts are about the forum culture, how the forum is run etc... then there is a problem.

I participate in a woodworker's forum that runs like clockwork. Just as many members as here but with a ZERO tolerance policy for flamewars. As a result it is a great resource and has a ton of camaderie. Any of the members would go to great lengths to help other members. They quickly weed out any trolls and as a result the knoweldgebase blooms with useful and accurate information.

I also moderate three groups with a combined (overlapping) membership of around 20k. I get my share of crap and certainly have sympathy for the mods on any forum. To continue the garden analogy your garden is only as nice as the time you spend tending to it.
 
Drop The Rock

Drop The Rock

1652nd on AZ Money List
Silver Member
Straightpool_99 said:
I think you need to relax a little. There is a difference betwen major corporations and some guy knocking out products from his garage. People in the pool world are a bit different anyway, and not quite as easily offended as other customers groups. I realise that there are companies out there who would consider Bob Sagets humour too edgy for them, but lets face it: I doubt most players would care much if some tip maker/ cue maker or whatever has an online disagreement with another. Personally I wouldn't care even slightly.

I don't see eye to eye with John Barton most of the time, for example, but I wouldn't think twice about buying one of his cases. It's a good product, that's what matters and I think that holds true for most of the customers in the pool world. I dont' know anything about Mr. Moori, but I buy his tips.

You need to understand that these one man shops, are just that, one man. They earn their own money and are not responsible to shareholders (which are the ones that usually dictate policy indirectly) in major corporations. Behind that "brand name" of the one man shop is one man. Not some horde of soulless lawyers or pr people spewing out corporate jargon and polishing every word within an inch of its life.

It's good to see both the good and the bad sides of the people in the industry and interact with them as a proper human being, rather than getting robotic answers without any edge what so ever.

If tip maker A thinks tip maker B makes a lousy product, and has proof of that fact, I'd want to know. As for criticising Dr. Dave, I won't defend that, other than to say that the critique in this case comes from a person who happens to run a company, rather than some corporate entity. There is a difference there, I think. It's not like when Coca Cola has an ad and you notice that there is not a single black person/hasidic jew/disabled person or whatever special interest group you sympathize with and you instantly whine on the phone/email to try to extract an apology, or try to sue for monetary profit (like some people love to do). It's some guy saying those things, so how about confronting him the same way you would any other? It's not like making a tip/cue or whateve makes you some mega authority on all things in billiards.
Click to expand...


I come from a long line of small business owners. My grandfather went from nothing to being the CEO of one of the world's largest drilling contractors. The point about bad mouthing your competition isn't about them, its how it reflects on you as a business owner.

My current company has 2 major billion dollar competitors. If we tried to tell new customers that their product is shit and so is their service, we instantly lose credibility.
 
Drop The Rock

Drop The Rock

1652nd on AZ Money List
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
Guilty. But I prefer not to cower in fear and state my opinion without the slightest thought that I shouldn't because of some mythical lost future sale. I didn't get into business for myself so that I could be held hostage to public opinion.

If someone here doesn't like how I conduct myself there is a list of case makers and links to them on my site for them to go to.

Yet....I have found that for every person that has ever told me they won't buy from me because I won't be quiet and toe the line.....another person tells me they are buying from me precisely because I don't cower and pander to bullies.

It's called COMPETITION for a reason. In business if your competitor is just making shit up, telling people he builds quality, lies to his customers then you should call him on it. Otherwise it's UNFAIR competition. Just like if someone was doping in running and you weren't.

As the saying goes it ain't bragging if you can back it up and by the same token it ain't bad mouthing if it's true.

That said, I will say that I have long spoken to the owners of this site and told them my opinion on how it could have been better. People like me, who actually know a lot about part of this industry, would love to engage the membership and have good conversations with no animosity at all.

But when we get trolled and harassed we have three options. Ignore the jerks and continue to be professional and nice.... takes a lot of personal fortitude and zen. Leave and deprive the group of valuable content based on industry experience. Fight back and not take shit.

#2 is sad for the group. Everything you ever wanted to know about anything in pool could have been right here in one place from the source but most industry people can't stand it here because they have zero protection from being harassed.

#3 is not professional and creates an atmosphere of animosity and saps energy. It's one huge reason I don't come here much anymore. I just don't find it enjoyable when most of the really good people are gone and the most vocal ones left are often the trolls who ran the good people off. But as long as I do hang out here I refuse to take any shit off any person here. If that turns some of you off and you swear to never buy a JB Case then I guess I will have to live with it. The way I see it is that I can't lose what I never had and you can't buy my silence for the possible sale of a case. I would actually be ashamed of myself if I ever tried to control someone's speech by waving a dollar in front of them. Don't get me wrong, there are companies I don't support. Just this morning at the airport I made a conscious decision NOT to buy Nestle's bottled water precisely because of their corporate actions. The CEO of Nestle exercised his right to be an asshole and I chose not to buy their water.

So if anyone thinks I am an asshole they are more than welcome not to buy our cases. We make a couple thousand cases a year to serve a population of millions of pool players. I think we will be ok.

But you're right...option 1 is definitely the best choice.
Click to expand...

You are opinionated as hell John. You have a very quirky personality and talk a lot of shit. You also make one hell of a case and I wouldn't buy any others. You are also pretty low on the troll scale when it comes to the majority of posters. I have respect for you in that you aren't afraid to play devil's advocate.

The are other guys on here that are just complete assholes that want you to buy their product or go to their pool room because its the "best". I have consciously decided to go elsewhere in some cases.

What really is the point though? If the SPF guys were smart they would have just laughed and ignored Rick but instead they started slinging insults at him while he just kept on being passive aggressive. For better or worse, Rick did have good points here and there.

As much as my ego can feel really good about the fact that I wont be "silenced." All that I'm doing at the end of the day is buying into my own BS (which I have definitely been guilty of).

I don't know if any of the OB guys got involved in the flame wars but one thing I appreciated about them is that they seemed to do a good job of remaining objective and being clear about their purpose on here.

Trying to have the best of both world's on a forum (advertisement and freedom discussion) just doesn't work out. So I ask, would you rather be "right" or make more money?
 
Drop The Rock

Drop The Rock

1652nd on AZ Money List
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
Another thing.....if many of the posts are about the forum culture, how the forum is run etc... then there is a problem.

I participate in a woodworker's forum that runs like clockwork. Just as many members as here but with a ZERO tolerance policy for flamewars. As a result it is a great resource and has a ton of camaderie. Any of the members would go to great lengths to help other members. They quickly weed out any trolls and as a result the knoweldgebase blooms with useful and accurate information.

I also moderate three groups with a combined (overlapping) membership of around 20k. I get my share of crap and certainly have sympathy for the mods on any forum. To continue the garden analogy your garden is only as nice as the time you spend tending to it.
Click to expand...

So do you claim to be enforcing a zero tolerance policy or just fanning the flames? I think its the former, but the effect is the latter.
 
SeabrookMiglla

SeabrookMiglla

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
definitely a ridiculous amount of flamewars here on the main forum... the other categories found on AZ are nowhere nearly as bad.

a lot of really good information can be found on some of the posts here, but you've gotta sift through the cat fight posts to get to them...
 
C

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
I would agree. If I was a business owner I'd want to be careful about the way I or anyone representing my business comports themselves in public.

It's worth mentioning however that all feedback is good feedback. It doesn't matter if the customer has experience, all feedback is worth listening to. Take what's useful and ignore the rest but don't enforce or expect a positive feedback only policy.
 
S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Really? Name ONE...:rolleyes: English's lack of knowledge, and his persistant ability to piss off others was felt across the board here, and voiced by many, many posters...not just us SPF guys.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Drop The Rock said:
If the SPF guys were smart they would have just laughed and ignored Rick but instead they started slinging insults at him while he just kept on being passive aggressive. For better or worse, Rick did have good points here and there.
Click to expand...
 
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W

warriorpoet62

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Guilty. But I prefer not to cower in fear and state my opinion without the slightest thought that I shouldn't because of some mythical lost future sale. I didn't get into business for myself so that I could be held hostage to public opinion.

If someone here doesn't like how I conduct myself there is a list of case makers and links to them on my site for them to go to.

Yet....I have found that for every person that has ever told me they won't buy from me because I won't be quiet and toe the line.....another person tells me they are buying from me precisely because I don't cower and pander to bullies.

It's called COMPETITION for a reason. In business if your competitor is just making shit up, telling people he builds quality, lies to his customers then you should call him on it. Otherwise it's UNFAIR competition. Just like if someone was doping in running and you weren't.

As the saying goes it ain't bragging if you can back it up and by the same token it ain't bad mouthing if it's true.

That said, I will say that I have long spoken to the owners of this site and told them my opinion on how it could have been better. People like me, who actually know a lot about part of this industry, would love to engage the membership and have good conversations with no animosity at all.

But when we get trolled and harassed we have three options. Ignore the jerks and continue to be professional and nice.... takes a lot of personal fortitude and zen. Leave and deprive the group of valuable content based on industry experience. Fight back and not take shit.

#2 is sad for the group. Everything you ever wanted to know about anything in pool could have been right here in one place from the source but most industry people can't stand it here because they have zero protection from being harassed.

#3 is not professional and creates an atmosphere of animosity and saps energy. It's one huge reason I don't come here much anymore. I just don't find it enjoyable when most of the really good people are gone and the most vocal ones left are often the trolls who ran the good people off. But as long as I do hang out here I refuse to take any shit off any person here. If that turns some of you off and you swear to never buy a JB Case then I guess I will have to live with it. The way I see it is that I can't lose what I never had and you can't buy my silence for the possible sale of a case. I would actually be ashamed of myself if I ever tried to control someone's speech by waving a dollar in front of them. Don't get me wrong, there are companies I don't support. Just this morning at the airport I made a conscious decision NOT to buy Nestle's bottled water precisely because of their corporate actions. The CEO of Nestle exercised his right to be an asshole and I chose not to buy their water.

So if anyone thinks I am an asshole they are more than welcome not to buy our cases. We make a couple thousand cases a year to serve a population of millions of pool players. I think we will be ok.

But you're right...option 1 is definitely the best choice.
Click to expand...


Man you really are clueless. For you to be in business as long as you have certainly gives hope to everybody else. Good luck with the going out of business sale.

wp
 
philly

philly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
warriorpoet62 said:
Man you really are clueless. For you to be in business as long as you have certainly gives hope to everybody else. Good luck with the going out of business sale.

wp
Click to expand...

JB's posts on here can be a little much but I have spoken with him at the Expo and the man is quite a gentleman face to face and entirely professional and helpful. His product is top notch.
 
boogeyman

boogeyman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JB Cases said:
Another thing.....if many of the posts are about the forum culture, how the forum is run etc... then there is a problem.

I participate in a woodworker's forum that runs like clockwork. Just as many members as here but with a ZERO tolerance policy for flamewars. As a result it is a great resource and has a ton of camaderie. Any of the members would go to great lengths to help other members. They quickly weed out any trolls and as a result the knoweldgebase blooms with useful and accurate information.

I also moderate three groups with a combined (overlapping) membership of around 20k. I get my share of crap and certainly have sympathy for the mods on any forum. To continue the garden analogy your garden is only as nice as the time you spend tending to it.
Click to expand...

Very well said.
 
Colonel

Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
Drop The Rock said:
If the SPF guys were smart they would have just laughed and ignored Rick but instead they started slinging insults at him while he just kept on being passive aggressive?
Click to expand...


Ahhhhh, now we get to the heart of your agenda.
 
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JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Drop The Rock said:
So do you claim to be enforcing a zero tolerance policy or just fanning the flames? I think its the former, but the effect is the latter.
Click to expand...

We don't have a zero tolerance policy but with five mods we tend to stay on top of things and the community alerts us to people getting out of line. Generally someone will be around who can take care of the situation before it gets too far out of hand.
 
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