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Nostroke
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08-20-2019, 09:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom1234 View Post
Iíve found that the object ball seems to ďskidĒ more closer to the rails. Iíve seen an object ball almost stop (I could plainly see the number on the ball) before continuing on itís way. I couldnít figure out why until I saw an idiot chalk grinder chalk his cue over the f*-$#*g table! OB hits chalk spot, friction takes over, missed shot. Thank you idiot chalk grinder.
on every shot w a chalked tip-chalk flies off the tip/ball and on to the table. This accounts for about 30x as much chalk on the table than that idiot chalk grinder you FINALLY saw.
  
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evergruven
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08-20-2019, 05:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-Balled View Post
I ain't no smart but I think I done found sumpin.
ok, perhaps "sticky" was a poor choice of words
what I meant was, newer balls have this coating, this gloss, this "grip" to them,
that older, bar, etc. balls don't seem to have.
my balls are purty clean tho!
but say some chalk or sumpin finds its way onto one of these nice, newer balls
could then, that relative surface anomaly affect ball-ball contact (skid, kick, cling)
*more* than it would on a bar ball set that's old and has had much more time to "process" these anomalies
-?


peace & love
  
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Black-Balled
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08-20-2019, 05:42 PM

Hold up there, Bob.

We have long discussed the proximate cause of skids and now, le French are producing them on demand?

So the cause is revealed?

I have never needed wifi more than now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The British have a different word for everything. It's like they don't even speak English any more. For instance, they can put several bags of groceries into their boots. I don't think they have any special word for cushion-first shots. Banks they call "doubles". Crazy.

Different words for this single problem of too much friction at the contact point:
skid, cling -- US English
kick -- UK English and the snooker world
bad contact, heavy contact -- carom players speaking English
buttage -- French (boo-tahj)

Here is a video in French talking about "buttages" and demonstrating them:
http://corcelia1.over-blog.com/2016/...u-billard.html
  
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  (#19)
Patrick Johnson
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08-20-2019, 06:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom1234 View Post
Iíve seen an object ball almost stop (I could plainly see the number on the ball) before continuing on itís way.
Since they're always hit dead vertical center by the CB, OBs always slide a little ways before starting to pick up rolling rotation from friction with the cloth. Could this be what you saw, with the number conveniently oriented to vividly illustrate it for you?

pj
chgo
  
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  (#20)
Bob Jewett
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08-20-2019, 08:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-Balled View Post
... So the cause is revealed? ...
I've been doing kicks on demand for twenty years or so. The cause has been known since the 1980s. Except in the UK, where they still think it's due to phlogiston or weevils.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
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  (#21)
BRussell
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08-20-2019, 09:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Since they're always hit dead vertical center by the CB, OBs always slide a little ways before starting to pick up rolling rotation from friction with the cloth. Could this be what you saw, with the number conveniently oriented to vividly illustrate it for you?

pj
chgo
He was talking about debris on the table, which could cause what heís talking about.
  
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  (#22)
Bob Jewett
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08-20-2019, 09:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
He was talking about debris on the table, which could cause what heís talking about.
I don't think debris on the table can cause what he described.

What I think he's talking about is when you get a skid with follow on the cue ball and the object ball is rotating backwards (draw) for a short time and then is sliding without rotating, and then acquires forward roll as it moves down the table. In fact the OB does not stop briefly although it may appear to when this happens.


Bob Jewett
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BRussell
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08-21-2019, 09:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I don't think debris on the table can cause what he described.

What I think he's talking about is when you get a skid with follow on the cue ball and the object ball is rotating backwards (draw) for a short time and then is sliding without rotating, and then acquires forward roll as it moves down the table. In fact the OB does not stop briefly although it may appear to when this happens.
I can't speak for him, but I thought he was referring to when a ball's path is interrupted by a piece of debris, then makes it over the hump and rolls past it. I've seen that a lot with dirty tables.
  
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Tom1234
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08-21-2019, 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
This doesn't make sense to me. Balls don't slow down and then speed back up. And chalk on the ball only causes skids when it's exactly on the contact point between the CB and OB when they collide.

A skid (or "cling") is when the OB is thrown more than normal on a cut shot, going straighter than expected - or, on a straight shot, when the CB jumps up a little on contact with the OB ("climbs" the OB) and both balls go slower than expected afterward. Whatever happens before or after the CB/OB collision is something else.

pj
chgo
What I stated has happened several times. It may be a combination of dirty OBs and chalk on the cloth. The tables I play on get new cloth once a year and are never cleaned. Once the OB hits that spot with chalk, whether a straight shot or cut, it has a tendency to to slow down, skid whatever you want to call it. The outcome; always a missed shot.
  
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Tom1234
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08-21-2019, 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Since they're always hit dead vertical center by the CB, OBs always slide a little ways before starting to pick up rolling rotation from friction with the cloth. Could this be what you saw, with the number conveniently oriented to vividly illustrate it for you?

pj
chgo
Iím sure that happens, but the OB has travelled well past the OB and cue ball contact point when it happens to me. Since I use mainly top or bottom english, the combination of spin on the OB imparted by the cue ball and dirty OBs and chalk on the cloth could be the cause. In 30 years of playing on tables that were cleaned regularly and object balls cleaned daily, I never had that happen.
  
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ctyhntr
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08-21-2019, 10:47 AM

It's attributed to George Bernard Shaw that British and the Americans are two peoples divided by a common language.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The British have a different word for everything. It's like they don't even speak English any more. For instance, they can put several bags of groceries into their boots. I don't think they have any special word for cushion-first shots. Banks they call "doubles". Crazy.

Different words for this single problem of too much friction at the contact point:
skid, cling -- US English
kick -- UK English and the snooker world
bad contact, heavy contact -- carom players speaking English
buttage -- French (boo-tahj)

Here is a video in French talking about "buttages" and demonstrating them:
http://corcelia1.over-blog.com/2016/...u-billard.html


My ego is writing checks that my stroke can't cash.
  
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hang-the-9
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08-24-2019, 10:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
crazy..
I just got done playing and have never experienced more kicks in such a short period of time
must've been 4-5 in about an hour and a half
only one of them occurred with my using outside english
seemingly only significant change in playing conditions is my tip,
which is now much more hard after shaving it down pretty good
the tip is also made of paper (more on that later).
hard tip? murphy's law? tonight, on "mysteries of pool"...
Weather, hot, sticky = more skids
Balls not clean = more skids
Stroke a bit "funny" = more skids
Crap on the table ( dirt, powder) = more skids

The stroke being funny and playing with a harder tip can be hand in hand, both would affect how the cueball is struck.

Almost every skid I have had was after I did something odd with my stroke, like tried to hold it up for speed.


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evergruven
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08-25-2019, 03:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hang-the-9 View Post
Weather, hot, sticky = more skids
Balls not clean = more skids
Stroke a bit "funny" = more skids
Crap on the table ( dirt, powder) = more skids

The stroke being funny and playing with a harder tip can be hand in hand, both would affect how the cueball is struck.

Almost every skid I have had was after I did something odd with my stroke, like tried to hold it up for speed.
hey hang, thanks for the reply.
balls are clean, table's clean, weather's nice..but what you say about the stroke being funny
I think that may have played a part, plus whatever pool voodoo shows up from time to time
thanks again.


peace & love
  
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Patrick Johnson
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08-25-2019, 07:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hang-the-9 View Post
Stroke a bit "funny" = more skids

The stroke being funny and playing with a harder tip can be hand in hand, both would affect how the cueball is struck.

Almost every skid I have had was after I did something odd with my stroke, like tried to hold it up for speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
...what you say about the stroke being funny
I think that may have played a part
Sorry guys, but the stroke and the tip have nothing to do with it (but I'm interested in why you think they might).

The good news is our bad strokes won't cause more skids.

The bad news is our good strokes won't cause fewer skids.

pj
chgo
  
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Hits 'em Hard
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08-25-2019, 07:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Sorry guys, but the stroke and the tip have nothing to do with it (but I'm interested in why you think they might).

The good news is our bad strokes won't cause more skids.

The bad news is our good strokes won't cause fewer skids.

pj
chgo
Actually, stroke has everything to do with why skids happen. It is the sole reason the cue ball gains momentum. It is the sole influence on causing spin to be applied. I can almost intentionally cause a ball to skid by stroking through the cue ball incorrectly. Itís a three part combo. The cloth needs to be relatively slick, the balls need to be appropriately dirty, and the final part, the cue ball movement needs the proper spin and speed to make that skid. How else is the cue ball going to cause a skid if the stroke doesnít tell the cue ball what to do?

But the tip? Yea that has nothing to do with in/decreasing skids.
  
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