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BCA league night - foul or no foul?
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akane
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BCA league night - foul or no foul? - 09-03-2014, 08:45 AM

So this came up tonight.
The cueball and 8ball are a few millimetres apart.
The shooter jacks up about 45degrees, and is playing away at an angle (you can kind of see this by the way the cueball shoots off to the left side)
Foul, or no foul?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgTc...VtpzSA&index=1

The person watching the shot called no foul, as he could not see a clear double hit of the cuetip on the cueball, nor was there an obvious push of the cue through the cueball.

There is a section on the BCA website called "Ask the ref with Bill Stock" where he mentions the old WSR rules state that if the cueball travels 1/2 ball through the object ball, it is a foul. However this was subsequently changed to simply state that it is a foul if the cue strikes the cueball more than once.

The opposing player said "..but the physics of it..it must be a double hit.." - referring to something similar to the old WSR rule that the cueball had travelled into the space the 8ball was occupying.
The person watching the shot replied that had the shooter been striking directly straight through the 8, then that may have been correct. However in this case he was shooting both jacked up, and at an angle of maybe 30-40 degrees to the left of straight-on.

His final call was that he could neither see, or hear, a clear and distinct double hit (or a push shot for that matter) and therefore ruled in favour of the shooter.

What do y'all think?
  
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Careyp74
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09-03-2014, 08:49 AM

That shot there was not a foul. Travelling past the cue ball? Basically it was a jump shot. The cue ball leaves the cue, jumping into the air, hits the object ball, continues up, then catches felt with backspin and draws.


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Allen Brown
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09-03-2014, 08:51 AM

He didnt need to shoot that ball that hard and he didnt need to jack up on the shot.
It looked like a foul to me though. He clearly double hit the ball.
  
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Careyp74
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09-03-2014, 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Brown View Post
He didnt need to shoot that ball that hard and he didnt need to jack up on the shot.
It looked like a foul to me though. He clearly double hit the ball.
How would you have hit it? Level cue would have certainly caused a double hit at that close of a distance.

What gives you the impression that it was a double hit? The cue travelled downward, while the cue ball went up in the air after the hit.


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Allen Brown
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09-03-2014, 09:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Careyp74 View Post
How would you have hit it? Level cue would have certainly caused a double hit at that close of a distance.

What gives you the impression that it was a double hit? The cue travelled downward, while the cue ball went up in the air after the hit.
With no double hit the cue ball would not have traveled in a forward motion at all. He pushed through the cue ball into the object ball. The cue ball went in the air after the double hit.

It couldve been a good hit if he wouldve used a short punch stroke while jacked up.
  
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BRussell
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09-03-2014, 09:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Careyp74 View Post
That shot there was not a foul. Travelling past the cue ball? Basically it was a jump shot. The cue ball leaves the cue, jumping into the air, hits the object ball, continues up, then catches felt with backspin and draws.
Absolutely a double hit foul. The cue ball shot about a foot forward of the tangent line at the same speed as the object ball. No way he jumped like you said with that stroke.

He easily could have avoided the double hit by not shooting straight at the object ball.

In a pro event no one would have even challenged a foul call (but no one would try the shot that way). But in league, eh, what can you do.

Awesome that they got a video of it. A not-so-instant replay.
  
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Bob Jewett
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09-03-2014, 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by akane View Post
So this came up tonight.
The cueball and 8ball are a few millimetres apart.
...
If you are interested in some high-speed videos of shots like this, they are available on Dr. Dave's site. See http://www.billiards.colostate.edu/resources/ and scroll down to "Rules". There is also a quiz for referees there.

I can't open the video right now but is sounds from the action described by others that it was a foul. It is hard to convince a shooter that he just fouled if he lacks the knowledge of how the cue ball reacts on double hits. Many players can feel the double hit and know right away that they fouled.


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Billiardsfan
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09-03-2014, 10:17 AM

At about 52 seconds in this video shows your shot and why it was a foul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubbAzu_sCS4
  
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09-03-2014, 10:17 AM

I would call that a foul, on that close of a distance if the cueball goes past where the object ball is, it was pushed there. If not a double hit, it was a push shot which is also not illegal. A double hit is when the cueball hits the tip twice, a push is when the tip holds contact with the cueball for too long which causes the reaction you see in the video.

The issue with calling that is that very few people even know that the shot is illigal.

I've seen people shoot an identical shot with follow going two rails with the cueball, and everyone in the room, aside from myself and another player that is about an A level player, thought it was a legal hit.


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Last edited by hang-the-9; 09-03-2014 at 10:20 AM.
  
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Careyp74
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09-03-2014, 11:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Brown View Post
It couldve been a good hit if he wouldve used a short punch stroke while jacked up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Brown View Post
He didnt need to shoot that ball that hard and he didnt need to jack up on the shot.
ok, that makes sense


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Careyp74
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09-03-2014, 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billiardsfan View Post
At about 52 seconds in this video shows your shot and why it was a foul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubbAzu_sCS4
That isn't the same approach angle on the shot. The OP angle isn't that extreme. Look at 1:17


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09-03-2014, 11:55 AM

I don't think there is any doubt that was a foul. The ball CB could not go that far without hitting it twice.
  
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09-03-2014, 12:08 PM

That isn't the same approach angle on the shot. The OP angle isn't that extreme. Look at 1:17

At 1:17 you should have also noticed that the cue ball did not travel forward of the contact point.
  
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09-03-2014, 12:11 PM

FOUL. Normally, a good player would NOT even attempt a shot like that unless he was playing a newbie/banger Cause everyone else is gonna jump up and down on that shot
  
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09-03-2014, 12:53 PM

I have to agree with this. Unless there is a ref, or agreed upon third person to ref, calling the hit goes to the shooter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
FOUL. Normally, a good player would NOT even attempt a shot like that unless he was playing a newbie/banger Cause everyone else is gonna jump up and down on that shot


My ego is writing checks that my stroke can't cash.
  
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