just got back from apa nationals.

Celophanewrap said:

That's a product of poor coaching, on both sides. Page 7? You mean the portion that gives the time GUIDELINES? I'm still missing where this says ball in hand foul, will you point that out, please. Also, in looking over the rules of whatever the APA calls it now - World Pool Championship, I still see guidelines. I don't recall ever hearing that a referee could issue a ball in hand foul for the fictions shot clock violation. I believe at the national level a shot clock violation is a sportsmanship violation and would need to be brought to the attention of a floor manager or tournament director and a warning would be given before any such violation was called.

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Weekly league play it is a guideline as there are no higher authority people there to enforce it. At higher level play it is in the rules they give you that you sign along with the skill validation part. The penalty gets more severe starting with a warning, shot clock and then a BIH fouls, then you begin forfeiting games. The severity continues to follow the entire team, not just the offending player, and it continues to escalate until the team is no longer in the tournament.

I am pretty sure you posted previously you were a ref at events such as this and this is not a new rule.

Here it is straight from the website.: http://www.poolplayers.com/wpc/rules/
29.f. Excessively slow play will not be tolerated. You will be warned before any penalty occurs.
The penalties for violating any of the six categories detailed above are as follows: A warning may or may not be given, depending upon the severity of the situation.
Penalty Level 1 - Your opponent will be given ball‐in‐hand. If the player is still shooting, or already has ball‐in‐hand, then that player will be allowed to shoot until missing, and then be given ball‐in‐hand again.
Penalty Level 2 - Your opponent will be granted the game. (In 9‐Ball, your opponent will be granted the game, along with points for all balls remaining on the table.)
Penalty Level 3 - Your opponent will be granted the match.
Penalty Level 4 - Disqualification.
Note: If the violation or disturbance that caused the initial penalty level to be levied does not cease, the Tournament Director and/or designated assistant has the right to go from one penalty level to the next penalty level immediately.

Skippy27 said:

Weekly league play it is a guideline as there are no higher authority people there to enforce it. At higher level play it is in the rules they give you that you sign along with the skill validation part. The penalty gets more severe starting with a warning, shot clock and then a BIH fouls, then you begin forfeiting games. The severity continues to follow the entire team, not just the offending player, and it continues to escalate until the team is no longer in the tournament.

I am pretty sure you posted previously you were a ref at events such as this and this is not a new rule.

Here it is straight from the website.: http://www.poolplayers.com/wpc/rules/
29.f. Excessively slow play will not be tolerated. You will be warned before any penalty occurs.
The penalties for violating any of the six categories detailed above are as follows: A warning may or may not be given, depending upon the severity of the situation.
Penalty Level 1 - Your opponent will be given ball‐in‐hand. If the player is still shooting, or already has ball‐in‐hand, then that player will be allowed to shoot until missing, and then be given ball‐in‐hand again.
Penalty Level 2 - Your opponent will be granted the game. (In 9‐Ball, your opponent will be granted the game, along with points for all balls remaining on the table.)
Penalty Level 3 - Your opponent will be granted the match.
Penalty Level 4 - Disqualification.
Note: If the violation or disturbance that caused the initial penalty level to be levied does not cease, the Tournament Director and/or designated assistant has the right to go from one penalty level to the next penalty level immediately.

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Ok, "excessive slow play..." and you'll find a definition for "excessive slow play" where?
In the "guidlines" section?
Slow play is, at best, subjective, and I would bet it's gonna take more than a few shots to be considered excessive. Not so much that I disagree with you, because I really don't, but the fact is there is no hard rule that says when a shot clock will be imposed. Some of you may interpret the term "guideline" as a rule, but that's not what a guideline is and it is at the discretion of the tournament director when that shot clock would be imposed.
The referee should be notified of slow play, that accusation would be forwarded on to the floor manager and the tournament director who would then make the determination regarding a shot clock.
I would guess that the floor manager and tournament director didn't see it the way what's his nuts did. Maybe what's his nuts was a little over excited at the 21 second mark.
Still, I see only guidlines, nothing that is a hard rule

You can nitpick until your fingers bleed, but you and I both can tell when someone is playing slow. We can then reference the guidelines provided and expect normal shots to take less than 20sec typically and not 40-50 sec typically.

ElLeon said:

Your points:

2) Stalemate interpretation:
A: Again, i'll be direct here so you can understand this simple concept as you used your heart instead of your brain to assess what was said:

"Even after having addressed the cue ball a player may, if
not satisfied with the placement, make further adjustments
with his hand, cue stick or any other reasonable piece of
equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls the
cue ball while actually stroking at the cue ball, meaning a
double hit of the cue ball (sometimes called double clutching).
The ball-in-hand rule penalizes a player for an error. Without
this rule, a person can actually benefit by accidentally or
purposely scratching or otherwise fouling. In the unlikely
event that a game should ever become stalemated, meaning
that neither player wants or can make use of ball-in-hand,
then the balls are reracked, the same player breaks and
the innings for the stalemated game are crossed off the
scoresheet."

Source: Official 2016/2017 rulebook, page 6
http://media.poolplayers.com/TMRB/Rules-Booklet-English.pdf

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The text quoted above is on page 50 of the current manual (just for clarification), which is in the 8-Ball rules section. Since you were playing 9-Ball, the stalemate instructions in the last paragraph on page 67 apply. Namely, points, innings, and defensive shots stand, all remaining points on the table are marked dead, and the person who broke in the stalemated game breaks again. Is that how the ref ruled?

Skippy27 said:

You can nitpick until your fingers bleed, but you and I both can tell when someone is playing slow. We can then reference the guidelines provided and expect normal shots to take less than 20sec typically and not 40-50 sec typically.

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Then it will be a foul, or what?

Not singling any particular person out but son people can be such nit pickers and drama queens .

I'm glad I have a go with the Flo attitude ......99.9% of the time. It takes a lot to get me bent out of shape concerning situations that arise when shooting pool.

Will comment on one particular persons statement though. Skippy...im surprised at your statement of shark in the other team...shame on you. I thought you were strictly by the book at all times.

I went to Vegas for 9 ball 3 years ago as captain of my team. I threw myself Las almost every round. It just so happens that the 1st 2 rounds my matches started with sudden death. I was quite surprised when the ref came up at the beginning of my 1st match that it would be sudden death. I had never heard of it before and asked him to explain It.

I decided no biggie to me but the opposing team captain and my opponent were pretty upset about it. I more or less had to shut my opponent out since we were down 48-32. My opponent was pretty stressed out about the sudden death apparently or maybe he was not a very good 5....i dunno but I was up 19-1 and the ref was gonna call the match. . The other captain complained saying it was possible his player could mount a comeback. The ref looked over at me ...more or less shrugging his shoulders as to what I thought. I told him lets continue and finish the match. He said ok. I won 20-0 . I could have his as easily lost if he had made a few balls .they only needed 3 points to win but I am the type of guy who wants to win on the table and dont want a win due to a rule or technicality.

2nd round I won 19-1. Btw I am a 5 and both opponents were 5's.

Speaking of sharking....I had an interesting conversation with the opposing captain of my 2nd round match the following day when we passed each other in the lobby. He asked how we were doing. I told him that we had got put out in the 4th round. He said he thought I was gonna carry my team to the finals the way I was shooting. I laughed and said it takes a team effort.

He said that during the 2nd rack of my match with his player that he knew his guy was going to be in trouble when I shot the 4 ball in and got perfect on the 5. I asked...is that why you called time to have an observer come watch my shot on the 5 ? . He grinned sheepishly and said yea but it did not di any good. He said I sat down and sipped my drink and looked around the room like I did not have a care in the world and then got up and ran the table after an observer came and watches the shot on the 5.

I told him I thought that was why he called for an observer and found it amusing. I also said if I had missed the 5 I would have blamed myself and not him like so many people do quite often

I just dint get why every one wants to blame rules...opponents behavior ...tables....environment....everything under the sun for their loss when they bed to look in the mirror. Either you make a ball and win or you miss and lose...its that simple.

Celophanewrap said:

Then it will be a foul, or what?

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The 4 progressive levels are above.

lorider said:

Will comment on one particular persons statement though. Skippy...im surprised at your statement of shark in the other team...shame on you. I thought you were strictly by the book at all times.

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For the most part I am but there are 2 things at play here:
1. I would prefer the other team gets on their player to get them to speed up instead of me having to get an official to start watching them. At the point that they get aggravated or refuse to do so then....
2. I will not sit idle and watch the opponent try to force us into sudden death through slow play so I will get a ref.

Skippy27 said:

For the most part I am but there are 2 things at play here:
1. I would prefer the other team gets on their player to get them to speed up instead of me having to get an official to start watching them. At the point that they get aggravated or refuse to do so then....
2. I will not sit idle and watch the opponent try to force us into sudden death through slow play so I will get a ref.

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I am not a proponent of slow play by any means but what makes you think some one is deliberately forcing you into sudden death ? I don't like playing slow players but I don't get all bent out of shape over it.

I am not a slow player but I have been known to drag a match out to 30-40 innings by playing safes. I had a match at Napa nationals go over 3 hours before I finally won 4-4 in a 4-5 race. I betcha you and el Leon would hate to play me lol.

mental

Skippy27 said:

The 4 progressive levels are above.

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I'd love to see you try and point that out to a tournentry official. I can just see you going up to a referee, "that's level 2". LOL!
Love your passion, but you're gonna get an ulcer.
Some people take a little longer. If it's not a melicious attempt to shark you, does it really matter?

Billiardsfan said:

Since you went for Masters, did you watch the finals match? One of my teammates was there and said that it was 1 to 1 and the third match went like this:

Player 1 breaks three nine ball breaks in a row, then gets an early 9 in game 4. Played out game 5 and player 1 wins. Then player 1 breaks two more 9 ball breaks to win the match!

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It didn't quite go down like this. I was at the finals match because the team from Newport News, VA are good friends of mine that I used to play league with.

Anyways, the player from California (Ramin) did have a match where he started the match with the 9-ball on the break three times, but that was in an earlier match against a team from Herndon, VA. In the finals, they started out playing 8-ball and Ramin got out to a 4-1 lead. His opponent from Virginia (Tim) made an early combo on the 9-ball and won the sixth game to make it 4-2. Tim broke dry in the seventh game and after a little battle back and forth Ramin won that game making it 5-2. He then broke and made the 9-ball on the break two racks in a row to finish the match 7-2.

All in all it was a good finals. Both teams played great to get to the finals!

I do know of a team that gave ball in hand for shooting too slow in Vegas APA 8 ball. Their player was warned, continued to do it and the ref gave his opponent ball in hand.

I have seen refs that are assertive and know the rules, and refs that just don't. In 9 ball our opponent miscued, barely hit the rack and scratched, maybe 1 ball hit the rail. In this case it is a rerack and you lose the break due to the scratch. Our opponent argued that sinking the cue ball counts as making a ball on the break(WTF?) and the ref agreed and let them break again. WHATEVER

lorider said:

I am not a proponent of slow play by any means but what makes you think some one is deliberately forcing you into sudden death ? I don't like playing slow players but I don't get all bent out of shape over it.

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If you are up there shooting and the match is taking a while that is one thing and I wouldnt mind it at all if we are safety battling. If you are up there examining the table with every potential possibility of order for sinking the balls, then you need to work on your game and speed as you clearly lack those skills thus you are slow playing.

Celophanewrap said:

Some people take a little longer. If it's not a melicious attempt to shark you, does it really matter?

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Again, I am not saying if a person takes 22 seconds every 8th shoot, they should be scrutinized. You are choosing to try to make it appear that way. Everyone here knows what slow play looks like that should be scrutinized by the APA at these timed events.

Yes, when the match is on a time limit, it matters and some times it matters a lot. So whether or not they are malicious in the attempt is irrelevant. They are to play within the confinement of the rules or be penalized for it. If they do not have the skill to play within the rules, then maybe they shouldn't be there to begin with.

If the ref that is called over blows it off or displays a lack of knowledge concerning the rules, then I would go over his head to get someone that is not a volunteer to make the correct call. It is actually kind of ridiculous to see post here about people saying they called over a ref and the ref didn't know the rules so they accepted what they said and moved on. They are there to enforce the rules, if they don't know them for some unknown reason then they should seek the answer. They are not there to conveniently decide if something "really matters".

This was my 13th or 14th consecutive year of going out for a week just to shoot in the Mini's. I've never been out there with a team and that suits me just fine as I'd rather go out on my own and do my own thing. I have however been there and participated in both the 8 ball and 9 ball singles Nationals. IMO the APA does a really good job given the sheer number of players involved. I stay at Circus Circus and used to just walk across the street to the Riv but now it's a longer walk down the road to the Westgate. When I was a 6 in 8 ball and 7/8 in 9 ball I was winning enough in the Mini's to pay for most of my trip there but now that I'm a 7/9 it's become much tougher as there are some 7's in 8 ball and 9's in 9 ball that are real beasts. But I still love the atmosphere and the friends I've made over the years. And there's always Fremont St. too lol.

BogeyFree said:

This was my 13th or 14th consecutive year of going out for a week just to shoot in the Mini's. I've never been out there with a team and that suits me just fine as I'd rather go out on my own and do my own thing. I have however been there and participated in both the 8 ball and 9 ball singles Nationals. IMO the APA does a really good job given the sheer number of players involved. I stay at Circus Circus and used to just walk across the street to the Riv but now it's a longer walk down the road to the Westgate. When I was a 6 in 8 ball and 7/8 in 9 ball I was winning enough in the Mini's to pay for most of my trip there but now that I'm a 7/9 it's become much tougher as there are some 7's in 8 ball and 9's in 9 ball that are real beasts. But I still love the atmosphere and the friends I've made over the years. And there's always Fremont St. too lol.

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Great post. Several posters have positive posts concerning nationals and my experience a few years ago was positive also but you are always gonna have some that are always gonna find something to complain about.

lorider said:

Great post. Several posters have positive posts concerning nationals and my experience a few years ago was positive also but you are always gonna have some that are always gonna find something to complain about.

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There you go....
just gotta stir that pot, don't you....:grin-square:

Skippy27 said:

If you are up there shooting and the match is taking a while that is one thing and I wouldnt mind it at all if we are safety battling. If you are up there examining the table with every potential possibility of order for sinking the balls, then you need to work on your game and speed as you clearly lack those skills thus you are slow playing.




Again, I am not saying if a person takes 22 seconds every 8th shoot, they should be scrutinized. You are choosing to try to make it appear that way. Everyone here knows what slow play looks like that should be scrutinized by the APA at these timed events.

Yes, when the match is on a time limit, it matters and some times it matters a lot. So whether or not they are malicious in the attempt is irrelevant. They are to play within the confinement of the rules or be penalized for it. If they do not have the skill to play within the rules, then maybe they shouldn't be there to begin with.

If the ref that is called over blows it off or displays a lack of knowledge concerning the rules, then I would go over his head to get someone that is not a volunteer to make the correct call. It is actually kind of ridiculous to see post here about people saying they called over a ref and the ref didn't know the rules so they accepted what they said and moved on. They are there to enforce the rules, if they don't know them for some unknown reason then they should seek the answer. They are not there to conveniently decide if something "really matters".

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As I know there is no hope to convince you otherwise, I'll concede. Skippy, you are absolutely right and I think anytime you you feel there is a time violation you should handle
the issue each time exactly as you've described. Who knows, maybe they'll even thank you for making them aware of the issue. Let us all know how that works out for you.

Celophanewrap said:

There you go....
just gotta stir that pot, don't you....:grin-square:

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Well at less I am good at something. Not any good at pool being a lowly apa.5 as some refer on here

Celophanewrap said:

As I know there is no hope to convince you otherwise, I'll concede. Skippy, you are absolutely right and I think anytime you you feel there is a time violation you should handle
the issue each time exactly as you've described. Who knows, maybe they'll even thank you for making them aware of the issue. Let us all know how that works out for you.

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Gona stir it up again celo

Nah never mind. Let him have this one since I won the last debate. :grin:

lorider said:

Gona stir it up again celo

Nah never mind. Let him have this one since I won the last debate. :grin:

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Yea, wouldn't it be great if we were both there to see it