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10-04-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamuitipsdotcom View Post
Hi John,
What I am about to tell you is what I personally experienced with Steve Lillis. I am sure you know who he is. I personally took his cue at the SBExpo 2011 and had one of my authorized installers install a Kamui Black Medium. SBE was in March. The next time I saw Steve was at the BCA Nationals in Las Vegas 3months later.

If you watch his show, He is an incessant chalker. 2-4 times before every shot.

At the BCA Nationals he showed me his tip and said he needed a new one. (nearly to the ferrule) I asked him if he used a shaping tool. He told me "No, I did not have to do anything to this tip, it just wore down"

SO, what else could it be but the chalk wearing down the tip.

All Steve does is trick shot shows and practice when he is not doing the shows.

I doubt he would lie to me.

Just telling you what I experienced first hand. Please do not kill the messenger.
Anecdotal evidence is not allowed on AZB. :-) Believe me I have a personal story to fit every point. Maybe your point illustrates that chalk is deadly to Kamui tips? Maybe other tips don't wear down quite as much as Kamui tips do under the heavy burden of "chalking".

The point is that you don't really have any hard evidence of the claim that Kamui chalk allows a tip to last longer. If you did then you would be showing it because you would have done the testing to prove it.

Now as to the story I would say that you can estimate how many shots and what type of shots Steve was likely to take in a 3 month span and duplicate them in a controlled environment. Then you could show the results.

Let's take it as evidence though. I'd bet that in Steve's extreme case it would represent the same use as a normal user over two year's worth of play. So if a user goes from full tip to on layer in two years with regular chalk then how much do think that Kamui chalk will prolong the life of the tip? You don't know do you? One month more, a year more?

I will be happy to admit I am wrong when you show some real evidence of a tip being worn down from chalk alone.

I won't deny that on a subatomic level any time two objects crash into each other then each of them probably loses some mass, or one gains and the other loses. It is certainly possible that the chalk particles being violently pressed into the tip somehow removes some leather particles. But whether this really happens and how much it matters as a practical point are things unproven. Sounds good as a marketing point but what does it really matter to the user?

I personally believe that it is a non-issue. Tips are disposable items. They should be replaced as frequently as the user feels the need to regardless of how "worn" they are.

I have seen people play lights out with tips that barely covered the ferrule. Also some people put a new tip on and immediately cut half of it off because they don't like "high" tips.

Not shooting the messenger here. You have a lot to live up to when you want to charge what you are asking for the chalk. I am not like the people who call Kamui theives and snake-oil salesmen. I will try your product and hold you to your claims.

Pat Johnson IS the one who started in with calling you thieves and accusing you of insulting our intelligence. He is banned right now but he did make a very good point years ago about claims that one cues could "generate" more spin than another one.

He has a test for that on AZB somewhere - and the consensus was that IF the cue ball is struck in the SAME spot then it is not possible to generate MORE spin with one cue versus another. (within the parameters of what can be called a pool cue that is).

Anyway, you do your thing and if your evidence is good you should sell a lot. If not then maybe try rebranding it and selling for a lower price.

:-)


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10-08-2011, 02:11 PM

The effect of chalk in wearing down a cue tip (Or not) should be a very easy thing for someone with the right equipment to measure. I'd imagine all is needed is a fairly accurate pair of calipers and a suitable lathe setup so you can spin a shaft and then slowly move it into a block of chalk. Measure the tip when new, then once you've ground through a whole block of chalk see if there is any measurable difference in tip thickness. Repeat for a few blocks of chalk to get an average number. Assuming this number is anything above 0 then repeat the experiment with the Kamui chalk and compare results. (Ideally the nice Kamui folks would provide some chalk for testing, given the cost of the stuff!)


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10-08-2011, 05:09 PM

I like the idea... But there is one factor involved you may have overlooked. Spinning the cue on a lathe will cause friction. friction generates heat.

Heat will change the composition of chalk and eventually twist off the tip. The best test is real world. And Steve Lillis was a good example of how he wore down his tip. Not everyone goes through tips like Steve does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuntyDan View Post
The effect of chalk in wearing down a cue tip (Or not) should be a very easy thing for someone with the right equipment to measure. I'd imagine all is needed is a fairly accurate pair of calipers and a suitable lathe setup so you can spin a shaft and then slowly move it into a block of chalk. Measure the tip when new, then once you've ground through a whole block of chalk see if there is any measurable difference in tip thickness. Repeat for a few blocks of chalk to get an average number. Assuming this number is anything above 0 then repeat the experiment with the Kamui chalk and compare results. (Ideally the nice Kamui folks would provide some chalk for testing, given the cost of the stuff!)


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10-09-2011, 09:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamuitipsdotcom View Post
I like the idea... But there is one factor involved you may have overlooked. Spinning the cue on a lathe will cause friction. friction generates heat.

Heat will change the composition of chalk and eventually twist off the tip. The best test is real world. And Steve Lillis was a good example of how he wore down his tip. Not everyone goes through tips like Steve does.
You can set the speed on the lathe to be very slow so that the friction is not enough to generate heat enough to affect the test.

In fact there are many ways to improvise a mechanical testing device to emulate chalking and put the claims to the test.

Steve Lillis is not a good example. If I told you that another trick shot guy was sponsored by Tiger and he made a public statement that his Tiger tips lasted longer and held up better than all other tips he tried would that mean that the Tiger tips are better than Kamui? (really happened by the way)

Steve Lillis' remarks to you are called hearsay. They are not admissible in court and barely admissible in marketing.

Until a result can be duplicated then it is not considered proof. Steve's chalking habits might represent the extreme and of the spectrum where someone chalks incessantly while adding enough pressure to actually remove leather. Contrast that with someone else's "normal" use and you may find that normal use results in tips lasting for years.

I agree with Aunty Dan. I think that you should create a test where you prove your claims.
  
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10-20-2011, 03:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamuitipsdotcom View Post
I like the idea... But there is one factor involved you may have overlooked. Spinning the cue on a lathe will cause friction. friction generates heat.

Heat will change the composition of chalk and eventually twist off the tip. The best test is real world. And Steve Lillis was a good example of how he wore down his tip. Not everyone goes through tips like Steve does.
Anyone doing a hand roll with their cue using e.g. a Gator tool to lightly roughen up the surface of their tip so it holds chalk again/better is turning the cue more quickly than any chalker I have ever seen. That lathe would have to be set to turn slower than that, and the pressure lower, since the average person doesn't press the tip hard on the tip (the reason is simple, try it: you'll end up with less chalk on the surface than chalking with a light hand). In other words, the only problem with this type of experiment, if done right, is that it would be time- and energy-consuming, but I do not believe it would cause heat! Unless of course one were purposely trying to make this an unrealistic experiment to prove one chalk produces less friction and thus generate heat at high speed than another. Only that the latter would seem pointless.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
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I wasted 3 hours plus!!
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I wasted 3 hours plus!! - 12-13-2011, 07:21 AM

OK. I have learned 3 things here after reading every single post.

I will eventually have to switch from Blue Diamond and pay the 30+$ for a smaller cube of Kamui's chalk to see for myself if it is worthwhile. I never complained about Blue Diamonds prices because I thought them somewhat reasonable.

I know that I will probably not spend this much time on a forum about chalk ever again. Why I read every post aside from JB's excellent review, comments, offers, and sound logic is a mystery to me.

Which leads me to the final point. I will buy my next case from John. I already loved the work he has done, then reading 8 pages of comments for a honest review has only sold me more on this gentleman and his team.

So in conclusion after spending 3 hours reading I do know for sure, I Felix, will be ordering my first custom case from this genuine, and master craftsman.
To John from Kamui...I will eventually try your product. I recently switched from Moori to try Kamui Tips/Kamui Black Tips. I do think that Kamui products are slightly overpriced (50$-Scuffing Tool). But I'm a working class blue collar nobody. I imagine if I was a high paid exec I wouldn't blink an eye. So I am doing my best to not let cost sway my decision. I'll try to be as honest as JB. Which I think has been very open, truthful, and really trying to help.


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Last edited by Railbird Hero; 12-13-2011 at 07:26 AM.
  
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12-14-2011, 01:59 PM

Ralf Souquet, Thorsten Hohmann, Robb Saez - some pretty good players use their stuff - on the only part of their equipment that ever touches the ball. There must be some merit to it. So for an extra $25 every few months, I'm going to try it. If it even brings up my game 1% by avoiding one miscue a night and a little extra peace of mind on top of a shot, it'll be worth it. We're all looking for that edge in some way, whether it's a $3000+ stick, a new tip, glove or even that lucky pair of boxers, $25 is a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things - especially on this game we love so much.

Real cheap just to save me from washing the chalk off my hand every half hour too!

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My two cents worth… - 12-26-2011, 08:16 AM

After trying someone else's Kamui chalk at a tournament recently, I decided to buy one for some more in-depth testing in the practice room. It may be the highest-quality chalk I've ever used in terms of adherence to the tip, and in terms of friction: it truly feels as if the cue tip hardly slides off the side of the cue ball anymore playing side spin, for example (= longer contact). As a result, I may even get fractionally more side spin than with other chalk (compared to Masters, Blue Diamond and Cosmo). Not sure I get noticeably more draw or follow, nothing earth-shattering. Can play whole racks without re-chalking, that's true for sure, so maybe when there's a shot clock running, I'll use it. It seems to me it works particularly well with Kamui tips, with Triangle I had to be careful not overchalk. Leaves behind the hugest imaginable chalk marks on the cue ball when breaking, by the way, so the cue ball will have to be cleaned or else a kick/skid/bad contact with an object ball is virtually guaranteed. Thus far, I can't say it would be worth the money for me for the reason that I couldn't find a single shot I do noticeably better using it, nor one I couldn't possibly mess up. Might also mention I miscued a couple of times, which is something I tend to do like once a year usually, but probably because I tried to go to the limit and beyond on purpose, trying to see if there's anything "extra" it would do for me. Guess if money were no object, I'd use it, but as it is, not enough of an improvement for my game to justify the extra cost. Impressive chalk, though.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
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12-26-2011, 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by madfox View Post
Nice review I agree 100 %.
There is no debate that Kamui Chalk is the best way over the other brands, second being Blue Diamond. The only debate is about the price. Of course is high but not that expensive. We are NOT USED TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR A CHALK.
If you have a Kamui or other expensive tip on your shaft I think you can afford this chalk. Long time ago nobody thought we will have a 20$ tip ...

PS :
Blue Diamond is 3 $ and I chalk every shot in a 9 ball game
Kamui is about 75 % as quantity and I use it once every rack

Does this mean that a Kamui chalk is equal with 7 Blue Diamond chalks ? 25$ against 21 $ is not that much ...
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My responce - 01-05-2012, 04:43 PM

Tried the product, I have an old Brunswick cenntinial restored--9 ft--I've been playing close to 45 years--high runs well over 100 on many occasions
and have run sessions out in 9 ball when I was traveling. Enough back ground--I thought the stuff was like putting Applebutter on a Biskit when I first used it--thought the hit was just perfect--from what I'm thinking it was better than before when they took the lead out of chalk years ago. Now the only thing I didn't like, the stuff left clumps of chalk on the cue ball when using it--and my hands were filthy afterwards--I'm old school--I chalk after each and every stroke--don't care for not needing to--didn't purchase the product because of that point--anytime you can update with better technology
I believe one should give it ago--I'm back using the Masters chalk but will still try the new chalk out and work with it--absolutly love the tips and like the calk to some degree, but have to figure out whats going on the the dust
it's leaving behind on my hands and my cloth--really made a painted canvas of blue on my cloth.
  
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01-06-2012, 04:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Roberson View Post
I believe one should give it ago--I'm back using the Masters chalk but will still try the new chalk out and work with it--absolutly love the tips and like the calk to some degree, but have to figure out whats going on the the dust
it's leaving behind on my hands and my cloth--really made a painted canvas of blue on my cloth.
As good as I find the chalk per se, the marks it leaves behind on the cue ball, especially here and at this time of the year (already need to clean more than usual with the Masters or Blue Diamond normally used), are definitely a problem.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
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Tried something different
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Tried something different - 01-06-2012, 10:17 AM

After posting my post last night, I returned to the table for some more testing. That K chalk will draw that little white ball like mad. The dust and the chalk on the cueball was just as before. Then I tried this, I used the Kamui scuffer and cleaned the old chalk off of my tip. Then applied the K chalk and shot a few balls, then rechalked with Masters. If this stuf permeates the tip in the way thats discribed above , I'm thinking that this might be all thats needed to give a little more traction to the Masters chalk. I don't miscue very often anyway, but this seemed to help keep the dust down and I was moving the cueball just the way I was wanting to for around 30 min or so while I tinkered....Might be just the thing, lay down the K chalk as a substrate for the Masters overlay---that one block might last me years that way....
Dave---- Greetings from the U.S. as well

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01-13-2012, 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Cases View Post
So, finally I got my own cube. In fact on the same day I got TWO of them from two different places. Thanks guys!

I sort of feel like I should do a IPAD unboxing photo report on this stuff. But I won't because you all know what it looks like by now.

Getting into the vacuum sealed packaging required some effort. It LOOKS like there is a ziplock seal and if you tear along the dotted line that you will be able to open the zipped pouch. BUT I tore the package along the line and tried to open it - no chance, so I cut a little more with scissors above what looks like the ziplock. No chance. So I cut BELOW the ziploc and finally was able to get it open. So if the bag is supposed to be resealable I have to say that this one is not and someone should look into packaging that's a little easier to open.

That said getting a SINGLE piece of chalk in a vaccuum sealed package was a strange experience for someone used to taking chalk for granted.

So I just had to run to the pool room to try it out. "It's research honey." "When will you get home she asked", "when I miscue" was my reply and I don't think she was amused. (she knows the whole Kamui chalk saga)

At the pool room I wiped all the old chalk off my tip. My tip is very bald, not scuffed at all. It's a Black Diamond layered tip that was given to me a year ago.

I applied an even coat of Kamui chalk and decided not to chalk again until I miscued. I started out by shooting all sorts of spin shots while working through a couple racks. I was about four racks in before I miscued. I looked at the tip and decided to ignore and and kept shooting. About two racks later I miscued on a draw shot and then tried a few more and also miscued. So I chalked again with a lighter layer. Shot a few more racks and then the house pro asked me if I wanted to play a set.

I moved to his table and didn't chalk again. There were five cubes of Brunswick chalk on the table. I played the entire set without chalking and lost 7:5. Several times I found myself reaching for one of the chalks on the table and had to stop myself. All the shooting felt completely normal and comfortable. I did not miscue once during the set.

I did feel better by not having to reach for the chalk on every shot. This chalk did not leave any residue on the cloth, none on the cue ball and none on my hands. When I got home my hands were actually clean, or at least not visibly stained with chalk.

So to the question of whether it eliminates the need to chalk frequently.....YES IT DOES. With this stuff I feel that once per game would be more than enough. I played 14 games and never miscued once.

Does it increase the friction? I don't know yet. I really went to the edge of the ball and tried to see how far out I can get but I didn't spend any time marking the balls to see exactly WHERE I hit the cue ball. I will test that later on my table with my CueSight training ball that has precise markings for this purpose. I FEEL that it does allow for more spin but that could just be a placebo effect based on the built up expectation.

Is it worth it?

I think so and I don't say this lightly.

Disclaimer.

I don't have ANYTHING whatsoever to do with Kamui. I don't sell their stuff, Sterling doesn't sell their stuff. I think that some of their stuff like the $1800 cue case they sell is not worth the money being asked. I have told the owner of Kamui the same thing. However I LIKE the owner of Kamui a lot because he is passionate about his product AND he knows his product intimately. I know from speaking to him three years ago that he was then embarking on this quest to improve chalk and I respect anyone who tries to change things for the better.

So, why do I feel that this chalk is worth 100x the price of the market leader? Masters is about .25cts a cube.

1. It sticks to the tip even when the tip is not scuffed.
2. It goes on smoothly and doesn't take much to apply an even coat.
3. It lasts for many many shots before more needs to be applied.
4. It is not messy.
5. It is consistent and dependable.
6. It is much grippier. (based on my FEELING)
7. Using it allows me to establish a better rhythm.
8. Using it gives me confidence.

So for me it's worth it to own this and use it when I gamble and play tournaments. I really do feel that it is a big improvement over regular chalk. Would I like to see it be cheaper? Yes absolutely. While $25 isn't the world and chalk IS important I think that it's truly a premium price and the "elitism" that accompanies the advertising for it is a HUGE turnoff for me. I feel that Kamui should publish some actual data to back up the performance claims instead of making it a class thing, as in 'you must be a good player to appreciate our chalk'.

I think that this price leaves the door wide open for the competition to come in with cheaper versions and I hope that some folks start to research it because the stuff really does work and should be available to more people. The price is a deterrent so Kamui should be trying to get the price down so that their reach can be much greater.

Bottom line: The chalk works great.
Great, honest review. My only difference in my using the chalk is that when I first apply chalk and then strike the cue ball, it leaves a distinct blue mark. My tip is still fully chalked but there is a blue chalk spot on cue ball. That is my only issue. I will be buying more Kamui chalk when this one runs out. I am a convert.
  
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01-31-2012, 10:21 AM

I finally got my (pretty) small cube of Kamui chalk.

- It definitely helped me with certain shots where I just didn't have enough stroke. I noticed a clear difference on these shots. The consistency of the chalk would tend to produce more friction, arguable but it looks like it can.
- It is a different method to apply, it's almost like slightly moist conventional chalk, so I have to carefully apply an even spread of it will get chunky.
- It does mess up the ball a bit more and if you don't have blue cloth, this thing leaves visible marks all over the table from the tip hitting the felt. if you have tournament blue, you prob wouldn't see it much. I like the fact it's not dust so it won't go through and build up under the cloth. Chalk off seems to clean it up pretty good.
- Love the fact that I my right hand stays totally clean and I clean my shaft much less now.
- $30? I will buy it again but I think the price point is pretty high too. It's been about a week, I wonder if I will buy one cube a month, $360 a year...it adds up.
  
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Tried again - 02-05-2012, 11:39 AM

Well now--I have worked with the chalk for the last couple of weeks now. At first I used the K chalk as a substrate--applied the K chalk then used the Masters. That worked OK but the masters would eventually grind the K chalk off. I then removed the masters chalk from the area where I couldn't grab it up and use it again ,and just used the K chalk.
I go through tips fairly fast when I'm playing alot. The K tips seem to not last as long as my other Fav's have in the past. Once I started using just the K chalk I have noticed that the tips are lasting longer. Do I have proof of this? No, I can only attest to what my findings are.
I also noticed that when the K tips wear down to where they are thin, but not unplayable, I would start to miscue more often. With the K chalk, I haven't miscued for days and days now.
After giving the K chalk another try--I'm going to live with the clumps that are on the cueball( noticed that when I put just a little on, clumps aren't as bad)and the powder residue on the table.
If the K chalk helps with the life of the K tips (which are my fav of all time) and miscueing is cut to almost nill--gotta add, I'm sticking with both products--works for me.
  
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