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hang-the-9
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08-24-2019, 09:05 PM

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Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
If you get called on a foul every time you bend over the table, maybe you need to "lose some weight" or wear something a bit more "form fitting"..

I've seen a foul called on a person whose "long hair" brushed over a ball when they leaned over. Get a haircut, you damn hippy!
I think that was more of a "the opponent will call every phantom thing they think is a foul".

All ball fouls should never be used in a pro event when players are playing for their living without a ref at each table. What do you do if a player is in way of the view of the balls, does the opponent get up and walk in front of the shot to watch it for a foul? I have seen clear fouls disputed by the shooter (jump shot by Woodward I think was a recent one at US Open maybe) and without a ref, what do you do? Give the call to the guy that argues the longest or louder? Need a ref or no all ball fouls.


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08-25-2019, 12:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hang-the-9 View Post
All ball fouls should never be used in a pro event when players are playing for their living without a ref at each table.
Bingo! It's just not fair to use the rule in an unofficiated match.

I think the "shirt touch" foul is the equivalent of an occurrence that's quite frequent in golf. Even on the PGA tour, if one accidentally knocks the ball a few inches off a wooden/plastic tee, there is no penalty. Golf understands that players will try their best to avoid doing this, but also recognizes that penalizing a player for such a minuscule infraction would compromise the game as well as introduce an unwanted element of luck.

Pool needs to wise up and recognize that similar reasoning should apply to the "shirt touch" foul. If no ball is moved, penalizing a player is, in my view, just plain silly and randomizes the results.
  
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rules
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Tin Man
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rules - 08-25-2019, 01:26 AM

If the rule was all ball fouls without referees present then SVB did nothing wrong. If there is an issue, have an issue for the players that make the rules and put these players in a lose-lose position. Lose by calling foul and getting heckled by the masses, or lose by not calling foul and then having other players call foul on you.

I normally wouldn't call foul there, but I normally don't play with those rules. If I sat through a players meeting where they spent 10 minutes talking about how it was all ball fouls and you had to referee the other player then I'd probably follow those rules, even if it was a bit uncomfortable. Because I'd assume those were the rules everyone was going to play by, and I wouldn't want to be at a disadvantage.

In other words, traditional pool etiquette goes out the window when rules are modified by the tournament director.

For those that still disagree, let me give you another example. In the 2017 US Open 9 ball there was a new rule introduced: If the 9 ball was the only ball on the table and a player pockets it and scratches, the 9 ball spots and the other player would get cue ball in hand behind the head string. It was part of their 'bring back pressure spot shot' movement. NONE of the players liked this rule, they all thought it was super strange and gaffy and just wanted to play with the same rules as every other major tournament. But the TD was determined this would be better for the audience and for pool, so he stuck to his guns.

OK, so now picture this- you make the 9 and scratch. Are you going to tell your opponent "No, I'll let you have cue ball in hand anywhere because I think that rule is stupid"? Of course not. Because you know darn well if someone else makes the 9 and scratches you'll be shooting from the head string!

Same with that 'call the 10 ball tournament', players were lambasted for calling their opponents on that but other players called them on it too, so what are you going to do?

Bottom line, the issue is a tournament director issue. I personally don't think it's that big of an issue and am stunned with the heated responses of those who don't understand this. I do agree it's not a great rule and wish TD's would just leave the rules alone. Sometimes a well intentioned rule has unforseen consequences (like this), and as players we long for just one set of rules to avoid this type of confusion as to what is appropriate behavior.

As for SVB, the sport is lucky to have him.
  
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08-25-2019, 03:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post

For those that still disagree, let me give you another example. In the 2017 US Open 9 ball there was a new rule introduced: If the 9 ball was the only ball on the table and a player pockets it and scratches, the 9 ball spots and the other player would get cue ball in hand behind the head string. It was part of their 'bring back pressure spot shot' movement. NONE of the players liked this rule, they all thought it was super strange and gaffy and just wanted to play with the same rules as every other major tournament. But the TD was determined this would be better for the audience and for pool, so he stuck to his guns.

OK, so now picture this- you make the 9 and scratch. Are you going to tell your opponent "No, I'll let you have cue ball in hand anywhere because I think that rule is stupid"? Of course not. Because you know darn well if someone else makes the 9 and scratches you'll be shooting from the head string!

Same with that 'call the 10 ball tournament', players were lambasted for calling their opponents on that but other players called them on it too, so what are you going to do?
It's a little different though. You would obviously make your opponent shoot the spot shot regardless of how you felt about the rule. Because it's not a guaranteed make and it could certainly effect the outcome of the game/match.

Johnny's sleeve grazing the 7 ball had zero effect on the shot.

As for the 'call the 10 ball tournament' Any TD that establishes a call shot rule, and doesn't make an exception for obvious shots, should not be in charge of running a tournament.
  
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08-25-2019, 04:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by spartan View Post
It was against Alcano in the Manny Pacquiao tourney few years ago.
https://youtu.be/p9ZrFBWjrKk?t=5097
It was later clarified that this "calling obvious 10 ball" rule was specific rule implemented at this event.

But Biado was the biggest casualty - in semifinals he was hill hill and had super duper mega obvious 10 ball straight in few inches from side pocket and he did not call the 10 ball. His opponent Pupul pulled the crap, applied the technicality and called foul and jumped like monkey literally https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZcgsHPE4Ac

In final, hill hill Efren clearly gestured at the pocket for the 10 ball and left no doubt which pocket he was shooting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB74rp1MmUI
WOW....Pulpul, biggest a**hole in history. Calling it is bad enough, but to act that way, man, what a douchebag!
  
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08-25-2019, 04:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Bingo! It's just not fair to use the rule in an unofficiated match.

I think the "shirt touch" foul is the equivalent of an occurrence that's quite frequent in golf. Even on the PGA tour, if one accidentally knocks the ball a few inches off a wooden/plastic tee, there is no penalty. Golf understands that players will try their best to avoid doing this, but also recognizes that penalizing a player for such a minuscule infraction would compromise the game as well as introduce an unwanted element of luck.

Pool needs to wise up and recognize that similar reasoning should apply to the "shirt touch" foul. If no ball is moved, penalizing a player is, in my view, just plain silly and randomizes the results.
As far as the golf rule goes - it's a bit different, but I get your point. In golf the ball is not "in play" until it has been intentionally swung at. (kinda like the break shot in pool - each hole starts anew with putting the ball "in play") So, in golf, if you were to swing and whiff on your tee shot, that ball is now "in play" and you were to then accidentally knock it off its tee, you would incur a penalty.
So, to compare golf to pool, when Johnny accidentally touched the cue ball with his shirt, the cue ball was already in play (being in the middle of a game) so he would be penalized.
Personally, I have never agreed that something touching the cue ball should be a foul. I think the cue ball should have to actually be moved for there to be a foul. But I don't make the rules.
  
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08-25-2019, 05:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyOzone View Post
Personally, I have never agreed that something touching the cue ball should be a foul. I think the cue ball should have to actually be moved for there to be a foul. But I don't make the rules.
Seems we see this about the same way.
  
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08-25-2019, 06:21 AM

A lot of misinformation and misunderstanding here.

Zuglan's rule is cue ball fouls only until you actively shoot. So if setting up on a shot you hit a object ball with your shirt you turn to the opponent, tell them you touched it and permit them to replace it. If you shoot and touch another ball it is a foul.

This is a very good rule for non referred matches. ALL RULES can be manipulated. The move here is to wait and call the foul once the shot is made.

In central NY we all play these rules. The best thing is to call a neutral party on any shot that has a high potential for a foul. Most of the time I call someone to watch and th as t puts the opponent at ease and removes us both from any controversy. Several times I had impromptu referees make bad calls...you live with it.

I'm sure Johnny felt Shane waited until he shot to call the foul, which was the "chickenshit" part.
  
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08-25-2019, 06:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBC View Post
A lot of misinformation and misunderstanding here.

Zuglan's rule is cue ball fouls only until you actively shoot. So if setting up on a shot you hit a object ball with your shirt you turn to the opponent, tell them you touched it and permit them to replace it. If you shoot and touch another ball it is a foul.

This is a very good rule for non referred matches. ALL RULES can be manipulated. The move here is to wait and call the foul once the shot is made.

In central NY we all play these rules. The best thing is to call a neutral party on any shot that has a high potential for a foul. Most of the time I call someone to watch and th as t puts the opponent at ease and removes us both from any controversy. Several times I had impromptu referees make bad calls...you live with it.

I'm sure Johnny felt Shane waited until he shot to call the foul, which was the "chickenshit" part.

So if it's cue ball fouls only.

Why did Shane call a foul, and why did Johnny accept?
  
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08-25-2019, 06:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
So if it's cue ball fouls only.

Why did Shane call a foul, and why did Johnny accept?
Did you not finish reading? Up until the cue ball is struck, no foul could be called. Since in the process of the shot hitting the cue ball, Johnny moved the 7. Thatís where the foul is.
  
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08-25-2019, 06:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Hits 'em Hard View Post
Did you not finish reading? Up until the cue ball is struck, no foul could be called. Since in the process of the shot hitting the cue ball, Johnny moved the 7. Thatís where the foul is.
ok thanks

,,,,
  
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08-25-2019, 08:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBC View Post
A lot of misinformation and misunderstanding here.

Zuglan's rule is cue ball fouls only until you actively shoot. So if setting up on a shot you hit a object ball with your shirt you turn to the opponent, tell them you touched it and permit them to replace it. If you shoot and touch another ball it is a foul.

This is a very good rule for non referred matches. ALL RULES can be manipulated. The move here is to wait and call the foul once the shot is made.

In central NY we all play these rules. The best thing is to call a neutral party on any shot that has a high potential for a foul. Most of the time I call someone to watch and th as t puts the opponent at ease and removes us both from any controversy. Several times I had impromptu referees make bad calls...you live with it.

I'm sure Johnny felt Shane waited until he shot to call the foul, which was the "chickenshit" part.
Thanks for the explanation. Would you ever warn your opponent before they make the shot, if its obvious they dont realise their clothing is touching? A single warning only.
  
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08-25-2019, 08:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterpoole View Post
Thanks for the explanation. Would you ever warn your opponent before they make the shot, if its obvious they dont realise their clothing is touching? A single warning only.
Itís not my job to babysit my opponent to keep them from fouling.
  
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08-25-2019, 08:48 AM

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08-25-2019, 11:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hits 'em Hard View Post
Did you not finish reading? Up until the cue ball is struck, no foul could be called. Since in the process of the shot hitting the cue ball, Johnny moved the 7. Thatís where the foul is.
Except 7 did not move...


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