Are Systems Really Vital to Play Great Pool?

You learn to play without a system. Then when you reach a certain level, you use the systems to benefit you.

I have yet to see a good player that strictly learned how to play well from a system.

This is an interesting question you're posing CJ -

Are systems really vital to great pool? Maybe they're not vital - but I think that they are incredibly beneficial and helpful on all levels. Learning to bank by using a system lets you accrue more experience in making the banks than just simply shooting them over and over all willy nilly.

Systems like the 30 degree rule, the trissect system, the 90 degree rule, the 45 degree rule all make finding, playing, and understanding position play a whole lot easier as well.

I will also say this though - that my teammates who don't know a banking system usually will not see a clean bank when it's the easiest and highest percentage shot available.

So again, systems may not be vital, but they are incredibly beneficial, and allow you to see shots that others may not see immediately.

-Richard

I think the biggest problem is that people get hung up on the word system. Replace it with almost any synonym and reactions change. Even people who play by feel, are systematic in how they approach certain aspects of their game, whether they admit, or even realize it.
I dont know why people feel that "system" equates to "crutch", but for some people it just does.
I play by feel, but dont get hung up on semantics.... :grin:
Chuck

I think most "feel" shots are actually derived from a subconcious system.
You have hit this 3 rail kick 1000s of times and you know how to make it go long or short by speed or spin. You are playing by feel , but actually you know the system by repetition.
The problem with playing by feel, is that it does not work as well when you come up against an unusual shot.{Systems don't always work perfectly in some of these situations either}.
I believe the more systems you have to work with , the more likely you are to make the unusual shots/moves.
I also think younger players should learn as many systems as they can, it gets you way ahead of the learning curve with players your own age who don't.

What do you mean a system?

One could say systems can take away from someones natural ability. Take just about any sport and someone can put out a instructional video of how to do things properly. Then you watch the pro's and they all have their own style. I think systems can be a good learning tool. Doesn't mean you will achieve a high level using a system. What works for one person may not work for another. So systems can have their downfalls as well. They can discourage players because the system doesn't suit them, it's to hard to learn, takes away from their natural ability, doesn't allow them to relax and shoot freely. Some players can draw the cue ball two full lengths of the table and more. So if a system designed to teach you how to draw the cue ball didn't result in you drawing the cue ball two lengths of the table. Was it the system or the player or neither?

noun
1.
a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network; a complex whole.
"the state railway system"
synonyms: structure, organization, order, arrangement, complex, apparatus, network; More
PHYSIOLOGY
a set of organs in the body with a common structure or function.
"the digestive system"
the human or animal body as a whole.
"you need to get the cholesterol out of your system"
COMPUTING
a group of related hardware units or programs or both, especially when dedicated to a TAKEN FROM GOOGLE (so it's not official)

noun
1.
a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network; a complex whole.
"the state railway system"
synonyms: structure, organization, order, arrangement, complex, apparatus, network; More
PHYSIOLOGY
a set of organs in the body with a common structure or function.
"the digestive system"
the human or animal body as a whole.
"you need to get the cholesterol out of your system"
COMPUTING
a group of related hardware units or programs or both, especially when dedicated to a single application.
GEOLOGY
(in chronostratigraphy) a major range of strata that corresponds to a period in time, subdivided into series.
"the Devonian system"
ASTRONOMY
a group of celestial objects connected by their mutual attractive forces, especially moving in orbits about a centre.
"the system of bright stars known as the Gould Belt"
short for crystal system.
2.
a set of principles or procedures according to which something is done; an organized scheme or method.
"a multiparty system of government"
synonyms: method, methodology, technique, process, procedure, approach, practice, line, line of action, line of attack, attack, means, way, manner, mode, framework, modus operandi; More


From the above, I'd say that all humans are dependent of a working system in order to function. Breathing, eating, drinking, sleeping are the basic functions most take for granted. Without a functioning brain - - none of this is possible.
My 2 cents :thumbup:

I totally question the validity of the description/definition/premise. Anything that follows is fruit of the poisoned tree imho.

Edit- Not to mention the question in the Title of this thread is barely alluded to in the original post itself, if at all. I was wondering why some answered the way they did. Now im getting it. Im a little Stew Nod these days.

CJ Wiley said:

"Systems underlie every phenomenon, and are everywhere one looks for them. They are limited only by the observer’s capacity to comprehend the complexity of the observed entity, item or phenomenon."

According to this definition we can only see systems if we're willing to look for them.

Does this mean if you're not willing to look for the systems in pool they are, in effect, invisible? Maybe this is why some players can't see what's been right in front of their eyes all along.....hmmmm, this certainly does make sense, doesn't it?

Click to expand...

i havent read the other responces but kicking systems have helped me alot

I took it upon myself to practice bank shots and kick shots, until I developed a feel for them. Then I implemented a system that would help me see the bank and kick paths. There is no reason to learn how to race, if you don't know how to drive a car.

Aiming systems are a different story. In my case, you don't fix what ain't broke. No aiming systems for me.

Success in pool is all about consistency and you're not going to achieve that without some kind of systematic approach to your game.

I would argue that good "feel" players still approach a shot in a systematic way, and even though their shooting/aiming "system" doesn't have a name or specific, concrete steps, it doesn't mean it isn't still a system.

This discussion is a lot like the "you don't need drills" threads. Too many people get hung up on their personal interpretation of a word and can't see the forest for the trees.

krupa said:

Success in pool is all about consistency and you're not going to achieve that without some kind of systematic approach to your game.

I would argue that good "feel" players still approach a shot in a systematic way, and even though their shooting/aiming "system" doesn't have a name or specific, concrete steps, it doesn't mean it isn't still a system.

This discussion is a lot like the "you don't need drills" threads. Too many people get hung up on their personal interpretation of a word and can't see the forest for the trees.

Click to expand...

Why didnt I say that...... Lol
Chuck


Sent from my iPhone
Any spelling errors I'm blaming on autocorrect

Chuck Fields said:

Why didnt I say that...... Lol
Chuck


Sent from my iPhone
Any spelling errors I'm blaming on autocorrect

Click to expand...

Clearly I did not read everyone's reply before adding my own two cents.... great minds think alike!

Did Mosconi or Greenleaf have or use a "system" ?

measureman said:

Did Mosconi or Greenleaf have or use a "system" ?

Click to expand...

According to Hal Houle, Greenleaf did...a basic form of Center to Edge aiming...everybody uses something, but how they percieve what they do and then describe it to others is where we get all twisted up in debate...

I know many systems, studied them all for years, simply because I am OCD and have to know how and why everything works.
I Only use them as a check valve if needed.
Which is rarely,hardly ever, once in 3 blue moons.

Diamond system for 3 cushion gets the most attention from me if any,,,,again,rarely, check valve.

As someone mentioned... The subconscious system is always there.

The OP didn't say aiming systems, he asked if systems are vital to play great pool. I would say every intermediate to high level player uses at least some systematic approach to playing. The higher the level, the more systematic in most cases. The game itself is a system. It is a 2 x 1 table. It is "x" number of identical size and weight balls (aside from wear on older tables. A cue that must meet certain specifications is used to hit the cb. There are rules (which implies a system) that are applied to the game being played. The player identifies a pattern for shooting those balls. The player identifies the spin and speed to hit the cb at in order to obtain position to pocket the next ball. The player applies some type of system to aim the cb (feel will clearly have systematic aspects to it). Every good to professional player I've watched has a reasonably systematic PSR. While good players don't think about it, their stroke is systematic and reasonably consistent.

It would be absurd and foolish to think pool is anything other than a systematic game. Good players and above use many systems to achieve their objective.

Systems

CJ Wiley said:

"Systems underlie every phenomenon, and are everywhere one looks for them. They are limited only by the observer’s capacity to comprehend the complexity of the observed entity, item or phenomenon."

According to this definition we can only see systems if we're willing to look for them.

Does this mean if you're not willing to look for the systems in pool they are, in effect, invisible? Maybe this is why some players can't see what's been right in front of their eyes all along.....hmmmm, this certainly does make sense, doesn't it?

Click to expand...

Ive been waiting for a post like this.

What constitutes a system? I would say that anything that explains how to best do something.

So when people are against systems are they against figuring out ways to best do something? or are they trying to register a concern for something else? hence the cte vs naysayer debate

I think that debate is actually about something else.

Otherwise according what I hear naysayers say I guess we are supposed to blindly strike at balls until the Center Ball Fairy lets us make all of those shots, Then hopefully one day the English on the Ball Fairy lets us make the other ones.

If there is a better way of figuring out how to do things. I think I will go with a system that helps me out.

There isnt a system out there that doesnt require a player to apply it. So I think the best system is the one that will survive.