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Talking 08-25-2019, 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolmanis View Post
Except 7 did not move...
Yes, it is not like the CB changed trajectory like in this case https://youtu.be/0YXheh7Pg_w?t=2274

  
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Movement
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Movement - 08-25-2019, 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
Johnny's sleeve grazing the 7 ball had zero effect on the shot.
.
Thank you for the reply. Question for all of you "it didn't move, shouldn't have been called" people:

Suppose SVB tapped the cue ball with his tip on a warm up shot and it wiggled but never moved. Is that not a foul because the cue ball didn't move? Or is it a foul because you illegally hit the cue ball?

Pros don't foul and then vote on how big of a foul it was.
  
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08-25-2019, 11:45 AM

He made contact with a ball while cue ball in motion. Nothing states contact ball must move. Shirt was in contact with the seven as he hit the cue ball. If a ref was watching it would have been called a foul so why not just because one isn’t there.
Yes Archer could have contested. likely been able to continue shooting unless they went to video for an official decision.
  
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08-25-2019, 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
Thank you for the reply. Question for all of you "it didn't move, shouldn't have been called" people:

Suppose SVB tapped the cue ball with his tip on a warm up shot and it wiggled but never moved. Is that not a foul because the cue ball didn't move? Or is it a foul because you illegally hit the cue ball?

Pros don't foul and then vote on how big of a foul it was.
If he just taps his tip against the cue ball, that's considered taking a shot.

The foul would be not pocketing a ball / hitting a rail.


I'm not saying Johnnie didn't commit a foul if his shirt actually touched the 7 (still hard to tell from the video). I'm just saying I wouldn't have called it, but I wouldn't fault anyone if they did.
  
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08-25-2019, 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hits 'em Hard View Post
Did you not finish reading? Up until the cue ball is struck, no foul could be called. Since in the process of the shot hitting the cue ball, Johnny moved the 7. Thatís where the foul is.
How did you determine that Johnny moved the 7. That seems highly doubtful. Is there video evidence?
  
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accurate and concise
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accurate and concise - 08-25-2019, 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by croscoe View Post
He made contact with a ball while cue ball in motion. Nothing states contact ball must move. Shirt was in contact with the seven as he hit the cue ball. If a ref was watching it would have been called a foul so why not just because one isnít there.
Yes Archer could have contested. likely been able to continue shooting unless they went to video for an official decision.


Accurately and concisely explained. Johnny's shirt touching wasn't a foul until the cue ball was hit with the shirt still in contact.

Hu
  
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08-25-2019, 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by croscoe View Post
He made contact with a ball while cue ball in motion. Nothing states contact ball must move. Shirt was in contact with the seven as he hit the cue ball. If a ref was watching it would have been called a foul so why not just because one isnít there.
Yes Archer could have contested. likely been able to continue shooting unless they went to video for an official decision.
How do you know that shirt was contact if ball does not move? That is the point!


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08-25-2019, 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolmanis View Post
How do you know that shirt was contact if ball does not move? That is the point!
It seems like Shane was sitting with a side view, presumably staring at Johnnyís sleeve resting on the 7, he watched until Johnny took the shot...shirt still touching, at which point a foul had occurred.

I canít say what Iíd have done in Shaneís spot because like tin man mentioned Iím not a pro in a tournament trying to make a living. In a local tourney or match Iíd probably tell them their sleeve was resting on the ball before they shot. It definitely sucks though and I think Johnny was probably more pissed at himself than at Shane but Shane was the messenger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyOzone View Post
WOW....Pulpul, biggest a**hole in history. Calling it is bad enough, but to act that way, man, what a douchebag!
Jesus...Iíd have been livid watching that guy hop around like that lol. His heart mustíve been racing as he realized biado wasnít going to call that 10 at hill/hill and then his excitement just boiled over.

To make matters worse the ref then picked up the cue ball as if to give Pulpul ball in hand and Biado mustíve been in a nightmare like wtf is happening.
  
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08-25-2019, 01:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterpoole View Post
Thanks for the explanation. Would you ever warn your opponent before they make the shot, if its obvious they dont realise their clothing is touching? A single warning only.
Yes
And we do all the time.
Mike's rule is good because it lends itself to sportsmanship.
  
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SVB did nothing wrong
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SVB did nothing wrong - 08-25-2019, 02:39 PM

SVB did nothing wrong. People keep circling the same arguments or coming up with even further far fetched objections. I'm trying to consolidate all of the objections in one post. If you guys have any more I'll add them to the list. So far we have:

1. This is a ridiculous foul to call. The TD put rules in place at the player's meeting and specified an alternative rule set to those traditionally enforced. As a result the traditional etiquette of what is a foul changes. If you don't like the rules, create a thread about the your distaste for all ball foul variants in play during non-refereed matches.

2. The 7 ball didn't move. The 7 ball isn't required to move for it to be a foul. If the 7 ball is touched by the shooting player during the shot then it is a foul.

3. How do we know the 7 ball was touched? Where is the video evidence? We know because SVB called a foul, and he wouldn't call foul if the 7 ball wasn't touched. Unless you are suggesting that SVB fabricated a foul which no one here has had the audacity to suggest, thankfully. Video evidence has never been a requirement of a player to call a foul.

What's really going on here is that normally what Johnny did wouldn't be a foul so in essentially all other tournaments a player would never call foul here people, so it creates the perception that SVB breached etiquette. As a result people are reacting emotionally and rationalizing a series of weak arguments to justify their outrage.
  
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08-25-2019, 08:24 PM

All Ball Fouls (Foul On All Balls) is a rule that is used in most major tournaments worldwide. It is used almost exclusively where matches are either televised of streamed. It has been the rule of choice for Straight Pool as long as I can remember.

The proper use of this rule is that TOUCHING any object ball with your hand, your cue, your hair or your clothing is a foul! That's pretty cut and dry. Touch a ball and you've committed a foul. It does not matter if it happens before, during or after a shot.

This particular adaptation of the rule can lend itself to confusion and I can see why something like this could happen. JMHO as always.


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Last edited by jay helfert; 08-25-2019 at 08:27 PM.
  
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08-26-2019, 07:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
SVB did nothing wrong. People keep circling the same arguments or coming up with even further far fetched objections. I'm trying to consolidate all of the objections in one post. If you guys have any more I'll add them to the list. So far we have:

1. This is a ridiculous foul to call. The TD put rules in place at the player's meeting and specified an alternative rule set to those traditionally enforced. As a result the traditional etiquette of what is a foul changes. If you don't like the rules, create a thread about the your distaste for all ball foul variants in play during non-refereed matches.

2. The 7 ball didn't move. The 7 ball isn't required to move for it to be a foul. If the 7 ball is touched by the shooting player during the shot then it is a foul.

3. How do we know the 7 ball was touched? Where is the video evidence? We know because SVB called a foul, and he wouldn't call foul if the 7 ball wasn't touched. Unless you are suggesting that SVB fabricated a foul which no one here has had the audacity to suggest, thankfully. Video evidence has never been a requirement of a player to call a foul.

What's really going on here is that normally what Johnny did wouldn't be a foul so in essentially all other tournaments a player would never call foul here people, so it creates the perception that SVB breached etiquette. As a result people are reacting emotionally and rationalizing a series of weak arguments to justify their outrage.
Good post, I'd like to add....

It may have been 2015 US Open...the one Kevin Cheng won...Shane bowed out of the tournament by calling a foul on himself, that nobody saw in the accustats arena or on the live stream. I believe it was a similar foul.

Opinions vary regarding on if he should've called it, but his integrity on this issue has a history of being rock solid. I know others will bring up the racking issues and that is up for debate, but as far as fouls and the integrity behind calling them, Shane is honorable.
  
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08-26-2019, 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
3. How do we know the 7 ball was touched? Where is the video evidence? We know because SVB called a foul, and he wouldn't call foul if the 7 ball wasn't touched. Unless you are suggesting that SVB fabricated a foul which no one here has had the audacity to suggest, thankfully. Video evidence has never been a requirement of a player to call a foul.
I have to disagree with you on this point. Saying that Shane would not call a foul if the shirt didn't touch, unless he is "fabricating a foul," is like saying either (1) he is never mistaken when calling a foul, and so couldn't be wrong if he thought Archer's shirt touched the 7 ball, or (2) he is being dishonest and made up the foul when there was none just to get ball in hand.

The third possibility is that he may have been wrong that Archer's shirt touched the 7 ball, and the evidence for that possibility is that the 7 ball didn't move.


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08-26-2019, 09:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
SVB did nothing wrong.

...

3. How do we know the 7 ball was touched? Where is the video evidence? We know because SVB called a foul, and he wouldn't call foul if the 7 ball wasn't touched.
You are making the ridiculous claim that Shane has been 100% infallible and above board his entire pool career and, therefore, it was a foul simply because "Shane said so".

That same argument has been used unsuccessfully before...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarsMan View Post
Shane was deep in the US Open, playing Corey Duel and he called a foul on himself that no one else saw. I don't know anyone who is more honest playing pool, I would be willing to wager that Shane doesn't believe he fouled or he would of called it.
John, I would refer you to the Bank Pool finals at DCC against John Morra, when Shane called a two rail bank and made it four rails instead. We both know what happened after that.
For those who don't know what happened after that, the referee had to step in (at John's request) to make the correct call against Shane and in favor of John Morra.

Fortunately, in that particular case, there was a referee. Otherwise, Shane would have been given a pass there, too, and John Morra might have been cheated out of his 2012 Derby City Bank Pool championship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
people are reacting emotionally and rationalizing a series of weak arguments to justify their outrage.
Kind of like how so many members of Shane's fan club rush to apologize for Shane every time he has a "lapse in judgement".
  
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Foul
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Foul - 08-26-2019, 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by penguin View Post
You are making the ridiculous claim that Shane has been 100% infallible and above board his entire pool career and, therefore, it was a foul simply because "Shane said so".

That same argument has been used unsuccessfully before...

For those who don't know what happened after that, the referee had to step in (at John's request) to make the correct call against Shane and in favor of John Morra.

Fortunately, in that particular case, there was a referee. Otherwise, Shane would have been given a pass there, too, and John Morra might have been cheated out of his 2012 Derby City Bank Pool championship.

Kind of like how so many members of Shane's fan club rush to apologize for Shane every time he has a "lapse in judgement".
No, I am making the claim that a shooter calls foul when they see a foul. We assume they are telling the truth. The shooter has the right to dispute if they disagree. Video evidence is NOT a requirement for a player to call a foul.

Players have been calling fouls on each other for 100 years and has always worked the same. I donít understand why this situation is complicated. Maybe because we canít see the ball move from the camera or maybe because we donít like this rules format or SVB. It really makes no sense.

A player saw a foul and called a foul. The shooter conceded the table. It is really that simple.
  
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