How level is "level" for pool tables?

He is correct here. On most bar-boxes(Valley-Dynamo) you take out the one piece slate, cover it and then install it. Not sure about a Diamond.

The balls don't care what your level says or how much it costs. Use them to get more level more faster.

A pro installer can no doubt get his work done faster with good levels but I do my own table maybe an average of once a decade. I can get close with good basic 2 ft and 6 ft levels. Flop them end to end in the same spot and if they say the same thing they are pretty good. Any digital level under $1000 is a waste of money for pool table leveling. If you insist on trying to do it based on levels you need many very expensive machinist levels. Not a sound investment for just 1, 2 or even 10 uses. There is a smart order and method to do a 3 PC slate but I won't they to explain it here.

Then slow roll balls from every angle and direction and tweak as needed.

It may take me hours but so what?

My way:

A) Absolutely works, my table plays great

B) Isn't for everyone or even most people

Normal people should probably hire a pro.

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If you’re leveling the slate without cloth on it, wouldn’t you have to worry about the weight of the rails and the tension of the t-bolts upsetting the level after installation?


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jviss said:

I couldn't find a spec for level, which is different than flatness.

For example, I have a Laboratory grade B surface plate that is flat, unidirectionally, to 0.0002". But I can assure you it's not level at the moment! The two are independent.

Click to expand...

LOL, then why bring it into the discussion? Sorry I bit on that.

Enjoy your table, at some point it's level enough, but I can see where discussions about levels and precision are fun for many and that's great.

Had my table re-leveled a couple months ago, guy did a great job IMO and no cause for alarm with any rolls I've seen or tried and honestly it didn't seem too complicated for him - knew what he was doing.

Now I've seen this thread nobody with a level will be allowed in the basement to play - don't want to know if it isn't perfect to the nth degree!

This:

____________________


Anything less and I dont want it.

i havent read the responses
but to me the tolerance of level is ....ZERO
you should be able to slow roll a ball across anywhere on the table in any direction with no roll off

bbb said:

i havent read the responses
but to me the tolerance of level is ....ZERO
you should be able to slow roll a ball across anywhere on the table in any direction with no roll off

Click to expand...

Seeing how even a brand-new Aramith ball has some tolerance, getting a ball to roll PERFECTLY straight might be tuff to do. Especially as the ball slows down.

Bob Jewett said:

Flat is different from level. If the slate isn't flat it's really hard for it to be level.

Click to expand...

Interesting to ponder that for a surface to be perfectly level (i.e. absolutely no roll off for a friction-less surface), then it can't be perfectly flat. Such a surface would have to match the curvature of the Earth. But then again, that surface won't be "perfectly level" either since the gravitational pull of the sun and moon would cause roll off.

logical said:

The balls don't care what your level says or how much it costs. Use them to get more level more faster.

A pro installer can no doubt get his work done faster with good levels but I do my own table maybe an average of once a decade. I can get close with good basic 2 ft and 6 ft levels. Flop them end to end in the same spot and if they say the same thing they are pretty good. Any digital level under $1000 is a waste of money for pool table leveling. If you insist on trying to do it based on levels you need many very expensive machinist levels. Not a sound investment for just 1, 2 or even 10 uses. There is a smart order and method to do a 3 PC slate but I won't they to explain it here.

Then slow roll balls from every angle and direction and tweak as needed.

It may take me hours but so what?

My way:

A) Absolutely works, my table plays great

B) Isn't for everyone or even most people

Normal people should probably hire a pro.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Starrett 98-12 levels are on Ebay all of the time. I've never paid more than $130 for one. I own 6. I also own (2) 98-18's, a 98-8, and a 98-4.

The 98-12 is the most ideal for leveling a pool table. Anything smaller spans too short of an area. You will pull your hair out, trying to level a table with anything shorter than 12". Anything longer (98-18) spans too long of an area. You won't be able to see some of the slighter changes, which may cause some drift.

You can absolutely level a table with a single 98-12 level. I did it that way for years. The more levels you have, the easier it is, and the less time it will take. I now use 4. However, I am going to start using 6.

When I level a table, I begin by getting the frame as close to level as possible.
The following is a condensed version of my process:

• - Level the frame, by spanning the frame with a good 6' carpenter's level, with a 98-12 on top of it
  
• - Place the slates on the frame
  
• - Span the slates with the 6' carpenter's level, looking at the gaps under the level
  
• - Determine where the high spots are
  
• - If there is a gap beneath the high spots, there is a reason.. Either figure out what is beneath the slate, causing it to sit high there. Or, understand that you will have to shim everything up to that height
  
• - Insert slate screws, leaving them loose
  
• - Insert glue wicks (drywall tape) between the slate joints. I use 4 locations on each seam. 5 locations, if the seams are really bad, or on 10' tables.
  
• - If you leave the gap beneath the slate at the high spot, insert a shim next to the closest screw location. You want this shim to fill that gap, such that the gap stays the same, once the screw is tightened
  
• - With that screw tight, you can begin shimming all 3 slates, such that the gap between the carpenter's level and the slates diminishes. This will require a bit of back and forth work. You're not looking for perfection yet, just getting it close. It sometimes helps to tap the level, to listen for gaps between the level and the slate
  
• - Once you have the first side close, you can then go to the other side of the table
  
• - Work in the same fashion as you did on the first side
  
• - Once the second side is shimmed to the same plane, you can then go back to the first side
  
• - Repeat the process, such that both sides of the table are completely on the same plane
  
• - Now that you have all 3 slates shimmed to the same plane, you can span the 6' level along the 3 slates, with the 98-12 on top
  
• - You can use this configuration to fine-tune the frame level. Adjust your feet, so that you are reading level. Move the 98-12 onto the slates, to check the cross-level. Use the 98-12 on top of the 6' level, to check the length-level
  
• - With the frame level, you can now move the 98-12 along various points across the table, checking level. The most critical locations are between each screw location. Fine tuning from this point requires patience and skill
  
• - Once you think that you have it completely adjusted, span the slates with the 6' level again, and give it a few taps. This is just a double-check

Note: My actual process varies from this one, as I use multiple 98-12 levels. However, this process should get you in the right ballpark. If you can get the 98-12 to read level along the entire surface, within one set of lines, roll-off won't typically be noticeable on Simonis 860 cloth. If you are off by one line, you may notice some slight roll-off on Simonis 760. However, the location of where you are off will make a big difference in what you actually see, when rolling a ball.

There is no substitute for experience.

jsp said:

Interesting to ponder that for a surface to be perfectly level (i.e. absolutely no roll off for a friction-less surface), then it can't be perfectly flat. Such a surface would have to match the curvature of the Earth. But then again, that surface won't be "perfectly level" either since the gravitational pull of the sun and moon would cause roll off.

Click to expand...

Interesting thought... However, for the surface of a pool table to match the curvature of the earth, the curvature would be immeasurable. In relation to the Earth's size, a pool table is far to small, for any noticeable deviation from 'perfectly flat'.

I started with a 3 foot level and got everthing as flat as I could, then I used a 9 inch Starrett level on mine that was calibrated.
It was very difficult to get the complete table level, because of all the different parts involved.
You get this corner in , now the corner you had in is out and you chase it all over the table.
I probably did overkill but I just kept shimming a tiny bit at a time and finally got it so the balls don't roll off in any direction. Then I put the cloth on, and it rolls as good as any table I ever played on , {thanks to all the people who gave me advice in the table mechanic section}.
I just wish I felt well enough to go down and wear the cloth out , so I could do it again a few times.!:grin-square:

yOUR tAbLE Won't be LevEL unLeSS iT's sEtUp At eXaCtLY .0010072 to MaTcH the EARth'S CUrVatURE.

:banghead::help::joyful:

Texas Carom Club said:

199ish? Dont follow
If you think you cant do work without overpriced starret tools

Well your just mistaken

Click to expand...

A Starrett 199 is a master precision level, with graduations of 0.0005" per foot. I assumed the level in your picture was of similar precision ... hence 199ish.

My post was simply to illustrate that the "bubble" has different sensitivities. Starrett is a good reference as they make levels in a variety of sensitivities.

Sorry you misunderstood, I certainly did NOT say, or mean to imply, that "you cant do work without overpriced starret tools".

Dave

DaveK said:

A Starrett 199 is a master precision level, with graduations of 0.0005" per foot. I assumed the level in your picture was of similar precision ... hence 199ish.

My post was simply to illustrate that the "bubble" has different sensitivities. Starrett is a good reference as they make levels in a variety of sensitivities.

Sorry you misunderstood, I certainly did NOT say, or mean to imply, that "you cant do work without overpriced starret tools".

Dave

Click to expand...

I did misunderstand
Thanks for the clarification

And if you want it to stay level, then you need to have equal weight on all 4 legs of the table, instead of one diagonal pair carrying most of the load.

jviss said:

Excellent, thanks. I have several carpenters and tool box levels, too coarse; and a machinist's level that's too sensitive, at 0.0005"/10" - will drive you crazy. I have a Starrett 98 on order. The Starrett 98 series is just right for this job, per the professionals. The documentation says "[t]he 6 through 18 (150-450mm) main level vials have graduations that are approximately 80-90 seconds or .005 per foot (0.42mm per meter)." I don't have mine yet, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say "0.020"/foot when outside the lines." Do you read the leading or trailing edge of the bubble against the graduations? I would think the former.

Thanks very much.

jv

Click to expand...

"outside the lines" is shown at about 1:20 into this video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWoqkfpZRkQ

It might be reading will beyond 20 thou per foot ... the bubble can't get out of the vial :lol:

Leading edge, assuming I am interpreting your question correctly.

Dave

ThinSlice said:

Why would you have to lift the slate out? What type of table are you referring to that you would have to lift the slate out?


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Click to expand...

I have seen dozens of bar tables re-felted and every time the slate is lifted up onto two rollers to ease the process and to get underneath the slate to clean the table.

Thats how its done

https://youtu.be/gVQLA99qvkg