BCA league night - foul or no foul?

supergreenman

supergreenman

truly addicted
Silver Member
I watched this shot about 30 times. I don't see a double hit.

This is what I do see:
  • the cue hits the ball at a downward angle causing it to jump
  • the cb this the ob on the fly and jumps even more
  • the cb hits the table and the backspin kicks in.

No foul

I moved forward frame by frame the best I could. I also listened to the shot at least 10 times and heard no double hit.
 
TheNewSharkster

TheNewSharkster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I do not see a foul. In my experience if a double hit occurs the cue ball travels at almost the same speed as the OB. In that video you can clearly see the cue ball has backspin.
 
sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Foul

TheNewSharkster said:
I do not see a foul. In my experience if a double hit occurs the cue ball travels at almost the same speed as the OB. In that video you can clearly see the cue ball has backspin.
Click to expand...

You can easily double-hit the cue ball and still impart backspin.
Here is a good slo-mo video which shows how...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubbAzu_sCS4

The shot in the OP's video is a foul because the angle taken was not fine enough.

BCAPL Rule 1-30.2
It is a foul if your cue tip is still in contact with the cue ball when the cue ball strikes an object ball. However, such a stroke may be considered legal if the object ball is legal and cue ball strikes it at a VERY FINE ANGLE. (from the Applied Rulings section) The term "fine angle" used in Rule 1-30-2 is often referred to in various other ways, including the common terms "thinning", "feathering", "sharp cut" or "barely grazing". However, when attempting to avoid a foul by complying with the provisions of the rule, there is not necessarily a particular angle that will guarantee a legal shot in any given circumstance. Whether a shot of this type is legal is affected by several factors, and the referee's judgment is final.
 
L

Lynch

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just watched the video and didn't read any of the posts to avoid being biased. IMO it is clearly a foul. The way he hit the ball if it was a good hit, the cue ball wouldn't have traveled forward before coming back. The reason why the cue ball traveled forward first is because of the double hit. I anticipated watching the video a few times, but once was all that was needed......

I hope the ref made the right call. I see double hits like this happen all the time in league and rarely call a foul on my opponent. I hope they are honest enough to call it on themselves and usually the better players do. If this happens in a tourney, I'm calling foul immediately. Hopefully though, I was smart enough to get a ref so he can call the shot instead of me.
 
victorl

victorl

Where'd my stroke go?
Silver Member
Clearly a double-hit... He had the right idea but shot too hard and executed it poorly. Any decent player with a conscience would call foul on themselves if the balls reacted like that.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
akane said:
... The person watching the shot called no foul, as he could not see a clear double hit of the cuetip on the cueball, nor was there an obvious push of the cue through the cueball. ... What do y'all think?
Click to expand...
I think the person who made the call needs more training as a referee. On shots like this you have to judge the shot by the action of the cue ball. This means that you have to understand why the cue ball moves in different ways.

The shot was clearly a foul.
 
Tickets

Tickets

Little Aussie Battler
Silver Member
I think Aaron the issue is there are no real full time referees for the leagues in Sydney. Not sure about the rest of Australia but we have a lot of snooker refs. No real 8/9 ball refs.

There are players within the league who will watch a shot and unless it is a cut and dry foul, it won’t get called.

In reality, you’re sitting on the sidelines waiting for your next match when someone asks you to watch a shot. You give a decision they aren’t happy with and it goes a long way to ruining your night. You are then debating the rules of the league for the next hour.

The only exposure I’ve had to quality refs was in Vegas. The league operators watching a shot and adjudicating during finals... a distant second.

Might be worth the league operators putting together a short 5 min YouTube video going through all the common fouls and getting players to watch it online. Push shots, double hits, simultaneous hits, clothing fouls. They all differ in the leagues i play in. Would be good to know each leagues stance on these.

I'd hate for that ruling to have decided your night.
 
R

rrick33

Rick
Silver Member
No Foul.

Had he used a level stroke it probably would have been; however he jacked up on the shot and the cue ball left the table during the follow through preventing a double hit.

That's how I saw it.
 
C

Careyp74

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lynch said:
Just watched the video and didn't read any of the posts to avoid being biased. IMO it is clearly a foul. The way he hit the ball if it was a good hit, the cue ball wouldn't have traveled forward before coming back. The reason why the cue ball traveled forward first is because of the double hit. I anticipated watching the video a few times, but once was all that was needed......

I hope the ref made the right call. I see double hits like this happen all the time in league and rarely call a foul on my opponent. I hope they are honest enough to call it on themselves and usually the better players do. If this happens in a tourney, I'm calling foul immediately. Hopefully though, I was smart enough to get a ref so he can call the shot instead of me.
Click to expand...

Think about this though. Did the cue ball hit the object ball while on the table, or did it hit while in the air? Have you ever seen a break shot where the cue ball starts to leave the table before hitting the rack, and after hitting, flies forward off the table?

Isn't this the same stance and stroke as a jump shot? That causes the cue ball to go off the table. The cue ball would then hit the object ball somewhere above the usual contact point, and cause it to continue up and forward, not stopping forward momentum.

There could have been a bad hit, but for the reasons I have stated now and previously, I would still say there is a chance it was good, and so call would go to the shooter.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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Silver Member
Tickets said:
... Might be worth the league operators putting together a short 5 min YouTube video going through all the common fouls and getting players to watch it online. Push shots, double hits, simultaneous hits, clothing fouls. They all differ in the leagues i play in. Would be good to know each leagues stance on these....
Click to expand...
Perhaps you mean something like this: http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm
The first video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKBrMQAa7wY
Here's the scoresheet for the whole quiz: http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/referee_quiz_score_sheet.pdf
 
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C

Careyp74

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
Perhaps you mean something like this: http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm
The first video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKBrMQAa7wY
Here's the scoresheet for the whole quiz: http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/referee_quiz_score_sheet.pdf
Click to expand...

For anyone interested on the first video at 5:42 you will see the mysterious cue ball going forward past the contact point after a good hit with an elevated cue.

On the second video at 1:00 you will see what happens when you don't elevate your cue enough attempting that type of shot.

ETA: excellent videos. There were a surprising many that I scored wrong, but after reading the explanation I said "of course, duh" I didn't like getting one wrong because the cue ball scratched off camera though.
 
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L

Lynch

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Careyp74 said:
Think about this though. Did the cue ball hit the object ball while on the table, or did it hit while in the air? Have you ever seen a break shot where the cue ball starts to leave the table before hitting the rack, and after hitting, flies forward off the table?

Isn't this the same stance and stroke as a jump shot? That causes the cue ball to go off the table. The cue ball would then hit the object ball somewhere above the usual contact point, and cause it to continue up and forward, not stopping forward momentum.

There could have been a bad hit, but for the reasons I have stated now and previously, I would still say there is a chance it was good, and so call would go to the shooter.
Click to expand...


I just looked at the way I phrased my post and I could see how it was misleading a bit.....Yes, it is possible for the cue ball to go forward without a double hit. I was more so referring to a combination of not only the cue ball going forward but more importantly, the trajectory of the cue ball....I have since read the other posts and Bob Jewitt has a two sentence explanation on the previous page that sums this shot up in it's simplest form. I'm not an expert by any means I should add; but imo this particular shot is a foul.
 
L

Lynch

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
I think the person who made the call needs more training as a referee. On shots like this you have to judge the shot by the action of the cue ball. This means that you have to understand why the cue ball moves in different ways.

The shot was clearly a foul.
Click to expand...

In regards to my previous post, this is what I was referring to. I'm kind of new with the posting stuff and am not sure how to get a quote from 2 different posts in the same reply.
 
N

nahog99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Careyp74 said:
Think about this though. Did the cue ball hit the object ball while on the table, or did it hit while in the air? Have you ever seen a break shot where the cue ball starts to leave the table before hitting the rack, and after hitting, flies forward off the table?

Isn't this the same stance and stroke as a jump shot? That causes the cue ball to go off the table. The cue ball would then hit the object ball somewhere above the usual contact point, and cause it to continue up and forward, not stopping forward momentum.

There could have been a bad hit, but for the reasons I have stated now and previously, I would still say there is a chance it was good, and so call would go to the shooter.
Click to expand...

To do what you are saying is VERY difficult, even with a jump cue. To do what you are saying with a regular shooting cue is damn near impossible. To do what you are saying with a shooting cue AND that slow of a stroke.. impossible. His cue comes down on the ball, imparts backspin, cue ball hits the 8, by this point in time his cue is touching the table, cue ball comes back and hits probably the ferrule, and hops up and to the shooters left. There is no way that the ball would do what it did without a double hit of some sort.
 
BRussell

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
nahog - absolutely you're right. No way that stroke he used was capable of jumping in the way that would be required to do what careyp is saying. That cue ball goes at least a foot forward of the tangent line before coming back.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
nahog99 said:
... by this point in time his cue is touching the table, cue ball comes back and hits probably the ferrule, ...
Click to expand...
I generally agree with the post but I think this part is not quite right. If you watch some high speed videos you will see that the time it takes for the cue ball to start moving backwards with draw is very, very long compared to the time the tip is on the ball or to the time the stick takes to move the distance between the close balls. It is the cue stick continuing to come forward that causes the second collision.
 
M

mcesarey

New member
Whether it was a jump stroke or not has nothing to do with it. Even jumping into that ball would have resulted in a double-hit. The cue ball stops for just a moment as the tip proceeds through the cue ball to hit it twice. The shot in this video was a foul...easy call. Need to hit at least 45 degrees away when it's this close...I've made good hits on a ball this close just to show it's possible, but you have to jack up 90 degrees and just nip a piece of the cue ball.
 
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