No more secrets in pool

Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
I think it's time to get real: What do most mediocre players need? More knowledge or a kick in the ass and an honest look at their game? The fact is most C and even B players overestimate their games strengths and underestimate their weaknesses. They think they can keep doing the same thing over and over and their game will get better, if they only watch a video every now and then. Well, I think they're dead wrong. I had my first coaching session as a c-player and I told the coach what my goals were. He evaluated my game (I told him that under no circumstance should he pull any punches, and that I hated any form of compliments), and he was indeed brutally honest. My current game fell short of the game I wanted in every way possible, and frankly I had really no strong suit to speak of. So I asked where do I go from here, and he said first you need to stroke the ball properly. He fixed my alignment then told me to do an excercise every day and see him in two weeks (which was the scheduled time for next session). That was the start of getting better for me. All in all it reminded me of the Pai Mei scene in Kill Bill but without unrealistic fighting. No real secrets were being exchanged, only solid fundamentals and hard work. I think people need a Pai Mei talk, more than a sales pitch from a used car salesman. They need to up their standards, not "secrets". If you can't get an instructor to show you what you should look like or be able to do on the pool table, then watch the pros. What can they do, that you can't? Then make a plan to be able to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETTsJggQl3I
 
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lfigueroa

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Straightpool_99 said:
I think it's time to get real: What do most mediocre players need? More knowledge or a kick in the ass and an honest look at their game? The fact is most C and even B players overestimate their games strengths and underestimate their weaknesses. They think they can keep doing the same thing over and over and their game will get better, if they only watch a video every now and then. Well, I think they're dead wrong. I had my first coaching session as a c-player and I told the coach what my goals were. He evaluated my game (I told him that under no circumstance should he pull any punches, and that I hated any form of compliments), and he was indeed brutally honest. My current game fell short of the game I wanted in every way possible, and frankly I had really no strong suit to speak of. So I asked where do I go from here, and he said first you need to stroke the ball properly. He fixed my alignment then told me to do an excercise every day and see him in two weeks (which was the scheduled time for next session). That was the start of getting better for me. All in all it reminded me of the Pai Mei scene in Kill Bill but without unrealistic fighting. No real secrets were being exchanged, only solid fundamentals and hard work. I think people need a Pai Mei talk, more than a sales pitch from a used car salesman. They need to up their standards, not "secrets". If you can't get an instructor to show you what you should look like or be able to do on the pool table, then watch the pros. What can they do, that you can't? Then make a plan to be able to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETTsJggQl3I
Click to expand...


If you are on a reasonably tight 9 foot table the game is tough.

I don't believe many players -- some playing at home on basement 8' furniture tables, old Valley 7 footers, or even some of the other full-sized tables found around the country -- understand how brutally tough the game is on challenging equipment against stout competition.

No DVD or aiming system is going to help you. No mystic mumbo jumbo in your head will come to your salvation on the case ball. Nothing about your feet here or there, or "pinning" the CB will rescue you.

You have to figure out on your own what works *for you.* You must hit thousands of balls paying attention all the while as to what is happening and why. The game is crushing hard at the higher levels, demanding a ton of precision and consistency. If you think your salvation will come in the mail you are kidding yourself.

Lou Figueroa
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I was taught these things and so was every other champion that I know of.

Straightpool_99 said:
I think it's time to get real: What do most mediocre players need? More knowledge or a kick in the ass and an honest look at their game? The fact is most C and even B players overestimate their games strengths and underestimate their weaknesses. They think they can keep doing the same thing over and over and their game will get better, if they only watch a video every now and then. Well, I think they're dead wrong. I had my first coaching session as a c-player and I told the coach what my goals were. He evaluated my game (I told him that under no circumstance should he pull any punches, and that I hated any form of compliments), and he was indeed brutally honest. My current game fell short of the game I wanted in every way possible, and frankly I had really no strong suit to speak of. So I asked where do I go from here, and he said first you need to stroke the ball properly. He fixed my alignment then told me to do an excercise every day and see him in two weeks (which was the scheduled time for next session). That was the start of getting better for me. All in all it reminded me of the Pai Mei scene in Kill Bill but without unrealistic fighting. No real secrets were being exchanged, only solid fundamentals and hard work. I think people need a Pai Mei talk, more than a sales pitch from a used car salesman. They need to up their standards, not "secrets". If you can't get an instructor to show you what you should look like or be able to do on the pool table, then watch the pros. What can they do, that you can't? Then make a plan to be able to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETTsJggQl3I
Click to expand...

They need one thing.....to develop a system to hit the cue ball straight and consistent, while accelerating directly at the moment of contact. This is what "they" need, and it can't be learned by themselves. I was taught these techniques, and so was every other champion that I know of.....either by a mentor, or road partner.
 
gunzby

gunzby

My light saber is LD
Silver Member
After you've been playing a long time any small discovery is as big as learning draw for the first time. The discoveries come further apart the longer you pay, but the importance remains the same
 
eezbank

eezbank

Silver Surfer
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
To be a top player, there is a lot you actually need to "know." Much of this "knowledge" is summarized with supporting resources here:

Top 100 Pool and Billiards Tips/Tricks/Secrets/Gems

This stuff really can't be described as "secrets," but there are many players (even some that are quite good) who don't know some of the stuff on this list.

Now, one doesn't need to learn these things by reading books or watching DVDs. All of it can be learned intuitively by trial and error through countless hours of practice and successful experience.

Most top players probably don't even know that they "know" this stuff, and many (if not most) of them can't explain what they know. Many of them are also incapable of teaching what they "know" to other people. But they most certainly do "know" all of the stuff one must "know" to be a top player.

For example, a top player might not "know" the 30 degree rule or need to use the Dr. Dave peace sign to visualize the direction of a rolling-CB shot, but you better believe that they know about the "natural angle" of the CB and can visualize this direction fairly precisely.

Another good example is an understanding of all important kick and bank shot effects. To be a good kicker and banker, you don't need to "know" this stuff, but you better be able to adjust for all of these effects when aiming different types of kicks and banks. The kick and bank "aiming systems" can't do this for you (although, they can still be useful references, even to some top players at times).

Regards,
Dave
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I'm curious if you have any data to back this claim up? This isn't the first time I've seen you write this type of statement on here as if it's fact. I'd love to see the study you or anyone has done to come to this conclusion.

Growing up and playing tournaments in Ohio I've had the opportunity to play against, with and on the same team as some top pros and even a world one pocket champion. When I would ask these players for help improving I never got a reply of "I just can't explain how I do this. You just have to learn it on your own". They didn't struggle to articulate what they were doing or how. In fact most players were glad to give me their time and advice.

Is it just that pros in my area that are knowledgeable?

If you have the data on this outrageous claim you continue to put out there as fact I would love to see it.
 
336Robin

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
eezbank said:
I'm curious if you have any data to back this claim up? This isn't the first time I've seen you write this type of statement on here as if it's fact. I'd love to see the study you or anyone has done to come to this conclusion.

Growing up and playing tournaments in Ohio I've had the opportunity to play against, with and on the same team as some top pros and even a world one pocket champion. When I would ask these players for help improving I never got a reply of "I just can't explain how I do this. You just have to learn it on your own". They didn't struggle to articulate what they were doing or how. In fact most players were glad to give me their time and advice.

Is it just that pros in my area that are knowledgeable?

If you have the data on this outrageous claim you continue to put out there as fact I would love to see it.
Click to expand...

You addressed Dr. Dave and Im not him but I have some experience dealing with people who play on this level.

Some can tell you things and some cant. Many more than you might think play intuitively and have a hard time describing it.

Some are able to come with good common sense statements about the shots and the anomalies in pool that make perfect sense.

Early on in my writing I used to ask people how they aimed being interested in their version while I worked out my explanations. I got a range of can't tell at all, to fairly descriptive and some that were absolutely not understandable how they describe it but they sure knew and were great shot makers.

I don't think data really needs to exist for something like that but I will say this much, he is pretty well right in my book. Some can, many can't. Even the ones who can cant always tell you understandably. Some come with beautiful explanations using common sense terms that are simply awesome as you suggest.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
eezbank said:
I'm curious if you have any data to back this claim up? This isn't the first time I've seen you write this type of statement on here as if it's fact. I'd love to see the study you or anyone has done to come to this conclusion.

Growing up and playing tournaments in Ohio I've had the opportunity to play against, with and on the same team as some top pros and even a world one pocket champion. When I would ask these players for help improving I never got a reply of "I just can't explain how I do this. You just have to learn it on your own". They didn't struggle to articulate what they were doing or how. In fact most players were glad to give me their time and advice.

Is it just that pros in my area that are knowledgeable?

If you have the data on this outrageous claim you continue to put out there as fact I would love to see it.
Click to expand...
Where's your "data" that shows Dave's claim is outrageous?

I agree with him - very few pros know much about the mechanics of pool (no offense to them; it's understandable). We have at least one good example posting here many times a day.

pj
chgo
 
eezbank

eezbank

Silver Surfer
Silver Member
I'll try to make it a little more clear since it wasn't apparently in my first post. You are clearly stating your opinion with no facts or numbers to back this claim up. You can make the claim that most pros don't understand the mechanics or explain them but you back it up with...because I say so. That doesn't wash in the real world. Provide some proof that most pros are inept at teaching mechanics or explaining them or it's just your opinion and nothing more.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
eezbank said:
You can make the claim that most pros don't understand the mechanics or explain them but you back it up with...because I say so.
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You didn't just say his claim lacks factual support; you said it's "outrageous" (i.e., wrong) - because you say so. What's the difference?

In my experience listening to several pros try to explain how they do what they do, none (with very few well known exceptions) have been able to in any coherent, detailed way. I wouldn't expect them to - they've spent their entire lives playing pool, not studying the mechanics of it.

pj
chgo
 
Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've got a prediction for an emerging secret, that will revolutionize playing and coaching.

It will be a pre-aligment aiming system, along the lines of CTE, but explained without the mysticism. By pre-alignment, I mean, setting of the bridge position such that one is aligned to slightly overcut, such that firm stun and medium firm follow shots go to center pocket.

This is just the base level. To take this aptitude to elite levels players will become accomplished at Back Hand English pivoting and adjustments related to pivot length which take into account throw and swerve.

Note that I'm not endorsing CTE methods, but I believe this system will inspire many to adapt accurate pre-alignment methodologies, that force players to TRUST their bridge alignment.

Colin
 
eezbank

eezbank

Silver Surfer
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
You didn't just say his claim lacks factual support; you said it's "outrageous" (i.e., wrong) - because you say so. What's the difference?

In my experience listening to several pros try to explain how they do what they do, none (with very few well known exceptions) have been able to in any coherent, detailed way. I wouldn't expect them to - they've spent their entire lives playing pool, not studying the mechanics of it.

pj
chgo
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Okay, I'll give this one more shot....

I'm saying both. His claim that "Most pros" lack the knowledge and ability to explain what they are doing is bogus.

My experience and your experience and anyone else that has interacted with pro level players may have a totally different experience in pro players explaining the mechanics of pool. I base what I think on less than a dozen players that I have personally interacted with. With such a small percentage I can't make a claim that "MOST PRO PLAYERS...blah blah blah". All I can say is that in my own personal interaction I haven't found the Dr's finding to be factual. So I asked. Where is the data to prove this or is this just your opinion?

I hope this makes it clear enough for you. I'd rather not explain something as simple as this again.
 
Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
eezbank said:
Okay, I'll give this one more shot....

I'm saying both. His claim that "Most pros" lack the knowledge and ability to explain what they are doing is bogus.

My experience and your experience and anyone else that has interacted with pro level players may have a totally different experience in pro players explaining the mechanics of pool. I base what I think on less than a dozen players that I have personally interacted with. With such a small percentage I can't make a claim that "MOST PRO PLAYERS...blah blah blah". All I can say is that in my own personal interaction I haven't found the Dr's finding to be factual. So I asked. Where is the data to prove this or is this just your opinion?

I hope this makes it clear enough for you. I'd rather not explain something as simple as this again.
Click to expand...

This won't answer your data challenge, but from what I've fathomed from several pros I've met, none have 1/5th the knowledge of Dr. Dave on the aspects of pool we usually discuss here. Their expertise is feeling shots and having a very good knowledge of what they use to get from here to there. Few have a deep understanding of the physics involved.

Colin
 
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Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Colin Colenso said:
I've got a prediction for an emerging secret, that will revolutionize playing and coaching.

It will be a pre-aligment aiming system, along the lines of CTE, but explained without the mysticism. By pre-alignment, I mean, setting of the bridge position such that one is aligned to slightly overcut, such that firm stun and medium firm follow shots go to center pocket.

This is just the base level. To take this aptitude to elite levels players will become accomplished at Back Hand English pivoting and adjustments related to pivot length which take into account throw and swerve.

Note that I'm not endorsing CTE methods, but I believe this system will inspire many to adapt accurate pre-alignment methodologies, that force players to TRUST their bridge alignment.

Colin
Click to expand...
Don't know if this is close to what you have in mind, but it might be helpful... a thread of mine from a couple years ago:

How Fractional Aiming Systems Help

Looking forward to seeing your ideas.

pj
chgo
 
Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
Don't know if this is close to what you have in mind, but it might be helpful... a thread of mine from a couple years ago:

How Fractional Aiming Systems Help

Looking forward to seeing your ideas.

pj
chgo
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PJ,

I think the reference points offer some advantages, perhaps the main one that I recognize is that it helps many players learn to spot an aim line that is thinner than aiming at the contact point.

Beyond that, I don't think they are strong, compared to feel of line.... which is the magic bullet of the 1/2 tip or air pivot. (edit: This may confuse.... what I'm suggesting is that the reference points play a lesser role in alignment than the final pivot, where I believe the proponents use feel to come to the final alignment.)

The main strength in such systems, I believe, is the trust that the player has found the line of shot, and the subsequent straight cueing that follows.

They may miss the first 20, but they'll adjust their pre-alignment and learn to adjust pre-alignment. i.e. Bridge Positioning.

The system offers good visual clues, but I think ignoring references to the pocket weakens the system. Though in most instances, I'm sure the pocket position is being picked up, all be it peripherally or through estimation of the position of the pocket via knowledge of the table geometry, via observation on the OB position relative to the rails.

Colin
 
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book collector

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Johnnyt said:
IMO the secret to being a top pro pool player is start playing at an early age and having natural ability, hit a lot of balls and hang with top players while learning. Johnnyt

PS: Most top American pool players came up from the same mold. Home table with father or other relative a good player and teacher. Family or relative owned a poolroom. Started playing at 10 or younger. They all left school at 16 or before, because they were making such good money in the begining, until they were known. Then no sneaking up, just giving too much weight.
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Same things I have found from my research.
 
peteypooldude

peteypooldude

I see Edges
Silver Member
The CTEL has many benefits. I start every shot the same way. I focus on the bottom of the OB and move left until I see the edge of the CB. It doesn't matter how the shot lays , this is where my PSR starts. It's also very useful for banking as most bank shot are either half ball or center to center. Whether your using a pivot or sweep or using it as a starting point....... It's a strong tool
 
J

jburkm002

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why are most shots missed? It is really bad aim, alignment. If all we had to focus on was making the ball our misses would probably be minimal. How many times you miss the last ball on the table. I think they added need for position probably causes most misses. Learn to control the cue ball. Put it anywhere on the table naturally. Thats the secret to pool. Not aiming. Look at pros playing safeties, kick shots and position. Maybe they focus more on the cue ball and not the object ball. My guess is you could have perfect aim and still not be a top player. Perfect position is a game changer and the secret to pool.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Colin Colenso said:
... the reference points play a lesser role in alignment than the final pivot, where I believe the proponents use feel to come to the final alignment.)
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I agree that going from whatever reference you use to the final aim line is done purely by feel - but I can't say which part of aiming is greater or lesser. Visualizing references (fractional, ghost ball, contact point, whatever) in a consistent way that gives a reliable framework for aiming is also a skill learned largely by feel, and it's an essential part of the aiming "picture" right up to and including the final adjustment.

I feel I'm lucky that I can easily visualize the OB contact point - it's just a reference/orientation tool like all the rest, but it has the advantage of being the actual thing I'm trying to hit. Still, I have to visualize it and then visualize how to hit it with another ball. Plenty of feel to go around.

...I think ignoring references to the pocket weakens the system. Though in most instances, I'm sure the pocket position is being picked up, all be it peripherally or through estimation of the position of the pocket via knowledge of the table geometry, via observation on the OB position relative to the rails.
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I'm sure that's true in every instance. The well known difficulty of pocketing a back cut (because of the lack of visual cues from nearby rails) is strong evidence of that by itself.

pj
chgo
 
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