An open conversation on what pool in North America needs and can support.

azhousepro · Oct 13, 2016

OK everyone, let me start this off by saying that it is meant to be a serious discussion and I will be deleting posts that don’t contribute to the conversation. “It won’t work for these reasons…” is fine. “What a stupid idea, he must be allergic to his money” is not.

With that being said, I have been approached by a party who is interested in the future of pool in the US. He has expressed a willingness to come to the table with up to $500K, if the industry can match his contribution.

I think he is talking about something similar to the WPBA when it was in it’s prime, but I also think he wants to build on that initial concept to involve all aspects of pool in the US today.

I believe he would want to form a committee that would advise him on various aspects of this endeavor. This committee would include knowledgable people from inside and outside of the pool world, and would include player input.

He understands that if this endeavor is going to accomplish anything, it has to be self sustaining and he is interested in different ways that might be possible. Sponsorship, streaming and other methods come to mind right away.

While I realize that there are a LOT of naysayers on this forum, there are also a LOT of people who truly care about the game and I think they would like to see something like this really happen. Let’s talk about what something like this might look like and how it might work.

With all of the talk about the WPA requiring players to become members, I wonder if now might be the right time for something like this to happen.

Rockin' Robin · Oct 13, 2016

He needs to talk to someone that has already done it.....and not someone who has ideas on how to do it.....albeit...me or Randy G.

As far as the industry matching his contribution, I don't think there is enough money being made by all the manufacturers combined to reach that goal. Maybe over the course of 5 years it could be possible to raise half a mil but the pool industry is so small in the United States today, I think they need to hold on to every dollar they can generate.

JoeyA · Oct 13, 2016

Mike,
The party you are talking to needs to find other parties outside of the industry willing to bring pool to its next level.

That being said, I would think that a guy like Barry Hearn would be the first person I would consult with if I were interested and had the money to invest in pool for North America.

Look forward to staying in the loop on this topic.

JoeyA

Marcopolo · Oct 14, 2016

In my opinion, what Kevin Trudeau had for the IPT was a great idea. That type of idea will make pool get to the next level.

336Robin · Oct 14, 2016

The base end is in trouble

I typed up a whole litany of stuff that I didn't post but I'm going to ask two questions instead.

What plan if any do you have in place?

There are problems aplenty to run you aground. Have you talked any sponsors?

If you arent going to plan on player support...which is unlikely at best. Then you are going to be relying on sponsorship and sponsorship is at an all time low. Ask the Pool Players how much sponsorship they have?

I cant type everything I know but if you cant nail down a sustainable model, which means support from some end. I wouldnt spend a dime on it.

If you gave me the entire 500k and said Robin you can keep it if you open a Pool Room, Sportsbar and Food Service operation. I and any sane person would tell you to keep it. I own a piece of a large room so I should know. Pool in general has no support and its demographic here where I live can barely pay the rent. If Valleys are all you have they are happy to play on them. I doubt seriously you are going to find much sponsorship there.

SJDinPHX · Oct 14, 2016

JoeyA said:
Mike,
The party you are talking to needs to find other parties outside of the industry willing to bring pool to its next level.

That being said, I would think that a guy like Barry Hearn would be the first person I would consult with if I were interested and had the money to invest in pool for North America.

Look forward to staying in the loop on this topic.

JoeyA

Yes, me too Joey, we would all love to see something good happen for pool!..I'm sure Mike thinks this individual is sincere about making such a sizable investment, but I cannot see where, or how, any 'matching funds' can ever materialize!..What 'other' entities could possibly be interested in participating?..Budweiser or Coca-Cola, could do it out of petty cash, but they, like ESPN, seem to have lost any interest in pool, some years ago!..Besides, if a big dollar sponsor were to somehow appear interested, who would they negotiate with?

The billiard industry, and the BCA, are not only grossly underfunded, (and fading fast) they have also not shown a willingness to do anything in the way of actually promoting the game of pool, in recent years!..It appears the only way this individual has a prayer of anyone matching his 500K, is to find someone just like himself, a complete pool degenerate, who loves the game!

That does not seem very likely does it?..There are very few multi-millionaire's, who don't seek a return on their investment, sooner rather than later!..That is why they have those millions of $$$..There are simply too many other attractive business opportunities to profit from, that are light years ahead of pool..The failure of the IPT, (for whatever reason) was a bad break, that high stakes pool, has never really recovered from! :frown:

PS..I agree, Barry Hearn is a business genius..But I do not see him making any real investments in pool! (U.S. or world wide)..Although I've noticed, besides his great success with snooker, he is involved..or has a stake in, just about every other popular game in the world! (Poker, Boxing, Darts, Soccer etc.)

Fuji-whopper · Oct 14, 2016

Marcopolo said:
In my opinion, what Kevin Trudeau had for the IPT was a great idea. That type of idea will make pool get to the next level.

I agree, his numbers were just out of line to start with. Start smaller and build up a following, work out the kinks, maybe incorporate Fargo ratings, try and work the WPA, have a player's organization form so that you can protect/endorse everyone & make a lasting contribution to the game/sport? Also really focus on the juniors, BEF and anything that will court new players and go toward future endeavors.

Neil

noMoreSchon · Oct 14, 2016

$500,000. A self-sustaining venture that would be beneficial to billiards in America.

1) Develop a product that you can take to sponsors. This is what we are missing for
a financial backer in the industry. Brunswick does not need to do this, Diamond, Seyberts of any number of online billiard industries need not this either. (at first!) It is
a niche sport and if you need a pool stick you find them, no need to advertise.

2) Find sponsors, Monster, Budweiser, Chevrolet and show them the product and entice them with the number of people they will be able to reach supporting billiards in America.
Have you ever seen a commercial for Monster energy drinks? But you watch any number of sports and you will see their logo on everything.

3) Establish a professional governing body that the players and sponsors can get behind.

We continually go about this the wrong way, money is not the ends in this situation. Larger tournaments, bigger payout so the players can support themselves?
They continually get the short end of the stick because we feel they are entitled to it. They are not willing to go to bat for themselves, and it is not up to us to find a way to support them.
We all have tried and thought about what would make pool great again, many great
minds have came to the conclusion that no amount of money, TV, movies or sponsorship
will fix it. It really is not broken, just not what we want it to be, and it will never be what
it should. I enjoy my streams, youtube and AZbilliards, I follow my favorite players on Facebook. I know when they are in action, what the brackets look like in the tournaments they are playing in.
What more can I have?

SJDinPHX · Oct 14, 2016

noMoreSchon said:
.....Establish a professional governing body that the players and sponsors can get behind.....

Your input brought up some other good points!..But to me, this has been our biggest failing of all!..Without an effective organization, like the PGA, PBA, (or all other sports enjoy) there will never be a way to promote, or negotiate with potential sponsors, even if they were interested!..A few have made half-hearted attempts, but until we have a working, dues paying, professional organization in place, nothing will ever change!..

JAM · Oct 14, 2016

Marcopolo said:
In my opinion, what Kevin Trudeau had for the IPT was a great idea. That type of idea will make pool get to the next level.

I agree with this line of thinking. The players who were a part of the original 50-member IPT group really liked the concept.

There was a dress code which everyone had to adhere to.

There were plenty of competent referees on hand at the competitions.

As I recall, there was no entry fee. If you were a member, then you did not have to pay an entry fee. There were qualifier events held periodically for those who were not one of the 50 IPT members, giving them a chance to be a member or compete in one of the events.

Good equipment is a must. I realize today that some people will use the equipment that will sponsor a tournament, but that equipment may not always be the best, such as odd-colored billiard balls or pool tables nobody's ever played on, et cetera. I'm not sure about the slow cloth the IPT used, as the fast cloth seems to be what is popular today.

Advertise, advertise, advertise is key. If nobody knows about it, then how will mainstream America jump on board? Capitalize on the players' persona. There's quite a few that are very interesting -- Niels Feijen's determination and off-the-table rock band persona, Earl Strickland being Earl, Sky Woodward's glee and enthusiasm of being in the big leagues and winning, Oscar and his father's tradition of being honest brokers and good players, Alex's fun-loving style on the table, Shannon's Southern charm and personality-plus, Rodney Morris' gentle giant demeanor, Mika's cosmopolitan style, et cetera, et cetera.

What I believe is lacking in pool today is personality. If the entity can convey personality and emotion of the players to the public, people will want to follow it, much like they do today in other sports. If nobody knows who the players are, then it cannot attract new interest aka new money.

That's my loose change on the topic!

SJDinPHX · Oct 14, 2016

Marcopolo said:
In my opinion, what Kevin Trudeau had for the IPT was a great idea. That type of idea will make pool get to the next level.

That is true!..Trudeau was a man of very questionable character!..But with Mike Sigel's guidance, the IPT had the potential to be an enduring success!..It appears the law change, (at about that same time) making internet gambling illegal, was its ultimate downfall!..We'll never know if it could have survived all his 'other' notably shady tactics, but he sure had everyone excited over big prize money in pool, didn't he?

PS..Maybe the guy looking to invest the 500K in pool, should have a chat with Mike Sigel???

HawaiianEye · Oct 14, 2016

JAM said:
I agree with this line of thinking. The players who were a part of the original 50-member IPT group really liked the concept.

There was a dress code which everyone had to adhere to.

There were plenty of competent referees on hand at the competitions.

As I recall, there was no entry fee. If you were a member, then you did not have to pay an entry fee. There were qualifier events held periodically for those who were not one of the 50 IPT members, giving them a chance to be a member or compete in one of the events.

Good equipment is a must. I realize today that some people will use the equipment that will sponsor a tournament, but that equipment may not always be the best, such as odd-colored billiard balls or pool tables nobody's ever played on, et cetera. I'm not sure about the slow cloth the IPT used, as the fast cloth seems to be what is popular today.

Advertise, advertise, advertise is key. If nobody knows about it, then how will mainstream America jump on board? Capitalize on the players' persona. There's quite a few that are very interesting -- Niels Feijen's determination and off-the-table rock band persona, Earl Strickland being Earl, Sky Woodward's glee and enthusiasm of being in the big leagues and winning, Oscar and his father's tradition of being honest brokers and good players, Alex's fun-loving style on the table, Shannon's Southern charm and personality-plus, Rodney Morris' gentle giant demeanor, Mika's cosmopolitan style, et cetera, et cetera.

What I believe is lacking in pool today is personality. If the entity can convey personality and emotion of the players to the public, people will want to follow it, much like they do today in other sports. If nobody knows who the players are, then it cannot attract new interest aka new money.

That's my loose change on the topic!

I agree with you and I think the players have to sell "themselves", not pool. In today's world, I don't think you are going to get enough of an audience watching two penguins playing in a sterile environment to make anybody want to watch.

There needs to be some "personalities" along with pool playing skills.

BeiberLvr · Oct 14, 2016

Some rambling thoughts in no particular order.

1. Establish a professional tour. Top 16 + 16 more through qualifiers. No entry fee for top 16. 4 qualifiers per event with top 4 making the cut. Entry fee from qualifiers would go towards prize fund.

2. Start with 12 events per year. 4 majors, 6 ranking events, and 2 invitationals (top 16 only)

3. Play only ONE game on ONE size table. This can be a different discussion, but my vote goes for 8 ball on 9' tables.

4. All events take place at a hotel (not a casino) or a small concert hall. Pool isn't meant to fill stadiums or large arenas. 2k spectators live is great.

5. Establish a list of the top 32 players in the world (WPA, Fargo, AZ Money, whatever). Those players automatically receive their Pro card. Anyone not in the top 32 can get their Pro card by paying $2,000 (not set in stone), OR by qualifying in a twice per year qualifier ($200 entry).

6. Having a Pro card allows you to play qualifiers for the major and ranking events. Pro card lasts 2 years and will then need to be renewed.

That's all for now.

Bella Don't Cry · Oct 14, 2016

AzHousePro said:
OK everyone, let me start this off by saying that it is meant to be a serious discussion and I will be deleting posts that don’t contribute to the conversation. “It won’t work for these reasons…” is fine. “What a stupid idea, he must be allergic to his money” is not.

With that being said, I have been approached by a party who is interested in the future of pool in the US. He has expressed a willingness to come to the table with up to $500K, if the industry can match his contribution.

I think he is talking about something similar to the WPBA when it was in it’s prime, but I also think he wants to build on that initial concept to involve all aspects of pool in the US today.

I believe he would want to form a committee that would advise him on various aspects of this endeavor. This committee would include knowledgable people from inside and outside of the pool world, and would include player input.

He understands that if this endeavor is going to accomplish anything, it has to be self sustaining and he is interested in different ways that might be possible. Sponsorship, streaming and other methods come to mind right away.

While I realize that there are a LOT of naysayers on this forum, there are also a LOT of people who truly care about the game and I think they would like to see something like this really happen. Let’s talk about what something like this might look like and how it might work.

With all of the talk about the WPA requiring players to become members, I wonder if now might be the right time for something like this to happen.

IMO:
An open conversation should start with He / She (Whoever they are) revealing themselves and their intentions for the game. It's a shady start already to commence with such a vague introduction. Something that Pool does all the time.

So with that in mind;

1. Serious investors should always announce their plans through official channels. This will encourage the experts to come forward.

2. $500,000 investment can go along way in the right hands. Please do not start by announcing a $100,000 added invitational event, in Las Vegas for 16 players with no TV coverage. This business model has been done and is doomed for failure. A new investor in the game, does not owe anything to anyone. So no hand out favours...

3. IF HE or SHE is a serious investor. Then pick up the phone and speak to Mr. Hearn at Matchroom. Mr. Hearn is a proven successful business person in the world of Cue Sports. Using business models that work for the players, the spectators but more importantly, for the success of the game.

If 'the investor' does not consult / meet with Matchroom, then they simply are not serious... :thumbup:

HawaiianEye · Oct 14, 2016

BeiberLvr said:
2k spectators live is great.

Anyone not in the top 32 can get their Pro card by paying $2,000.

2K people is a lot of people. I don't think they get that many in the live audiences for world snooker events.

I've seen a lot of APA-3s with cues that cost over a thousand dollars. Now they can get a Pro card for a couple extra thousand. Saves on practice and expenses...become a Pro overnight. Don't tempt them.

BeiberLvr · Oct 14, 2016

HawaiianEye said:
2K people is a lot of people. I don't think they get that many in the live audiences for world snooker events.

I've seen a lot of APA-3s with cues that cost over a thousand dollars. Now they can get a Pro card for a couple extra thousand. Saves on practice and expenses...become a Pro overnight. Don't tempt them.

We should tempt them. The only thing a Pro card does is allow anyone with it that's not in the top 16 to play in qualifiers for the major and ranking events.

Those qualifiers have entry fees. Those entry fees get put back into the sport.

The Pro cards cost money. That money gets put back into the sport.

We should not limit the total number of people that can have Pro cards. Only the total number of people that can play in Pro events.

iusedtoberich · Oct 14, 2016

I think one reason the game is not more popular, is no one knows the players. They have no story to tell. Even when there is a stream not much background is usually given on players. I'm talking about personal stories and such, that will make fans more interested in the player, and maybe help a fan pick a favorite player, so the fan will have an interest in said player and follow him around.

To that end, I think the money should be spent on an infrastructure to support the knowledge base on each player. One central location anyone can go to, including commentators, fans, opponents, etc. to find out all they can on each player. To include searchable match history, life history, personality type stuff, etc.

This knowledge base could be combined with FargoRate, imo. I think FargoRate has the potential more than anything else (imo) to unify the entire sport.

The whole point of all of this is to make the sport more interesting to watch, by giving the fans more information on the players. The crux of the reason the sport is losing interest every generation is because its boring to watch. This type of info might help keep the fan interested.

BeiberLvr · Oct 14, 2016

Maybe the most important thing. Get pool into the schools!!

Start off small with high schools, and eventually graduate

to colleges and then universities.

The sooner we get the youth involved the better.

justnum · Oct 14, 2016

Touring pros know best, they know when fans turnout and can find out what fans would spend money on at events.

Pool fans are all types, and finding out what they need is important.

SJDinPHX · Oct 14, 2016

HawaiianEye said:
I agree with you and I think the players have to sell "themselves", not pool. In today's world, I don't think you are going to get enough of an audience watching two penguins playing in a sterile environment to make anybody
want to watch.**

There needs to be some "personalities" along with pool playing skills.

That may be true, to a certain extent Mr. Eye, but how many pool players have the personality to "sell themselves", especially 'one at a time'?..Much more importantly, there needs to be a pro organization put in place!..Pool should take a tip from how the bowlers did it..Pro bowlers, were just a disorganized bunch of "alley rats", until a few of them got together, chipped in a few hundred apiece, and hired a public relations firm, and the rest is history.

The PBA was formed in 1959-60, and at that time, they didn't have any better image than "pool bums"!...They overcame that, and since that time, they have enjoyed millions of dollars in prize money, in hundreds of well organized national events!
**And please tell me, what could possibly be more boring to watch, than bowling?..The most exciting thing about bowling,
is a 300 game, and that happens about what, every 4000 games? :boring2: :boring2: :boring2:

PS..Hiring the PR firm, might be a good investment for the guy with the 500K to make, because try as I might, I can't visualize any three pool players, chipping in to do anything, together! (except maybe to buy a bottle)

An open conversation on what pool in North America needs and can support.

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