Mosconi Cup - stating the obvious

RichSchultz said:

Ok, I know I am over simplifying but hear me out.

Europe may have a deeper talent pool, but in this type of event team chemistry is EVERYTHING. With the same core winning team, there is no underestimating the value that can be placed on all this time practicing/travelling/competing together.

You cannot manufacture chemistry...only comes with time.

Captain Obvious signing off.

Click to expand...

To be honest, I've never believed this. Team chemistry is one of many ingredients in a winning formula. I don't think Europe won eight of the last nine Mosconi events because of team chemistry but with superior skills. The key to winning the Mosconi Cup is the eleven singles matches, and chemistry has little to do with singles. It is in singles where America usually played itself out of Mosconi Cup contention over the pat decade.

Last year, the US demonstrated better skills than in the past decade, largely thanks to the coaching team of Johan and Jeremy Jones, but it won chiefly because of two superhuman efforts by Skyler Woodward in beating both Ouschan and Shaw in singles in the late stages, both double hill. Take those two wins away and Europe would have won it's ninth straight.

Captain Obvious is mistaken -- the Mosconi is won with skills development, good decision making and sufficient preparation, not chemistry and not wanting it bad enough. Shooting straight and thinking straight deliver the day.

chemistry

sjm said:

Top be honest, I've never believed this. Team chemistry is one of many ingredients in a winning formula. I don't think Europe won eight of the last nine Mosconi events because of team chemistry but with superior skills. The key to winning the Mosconi Cup is the eleven singles matches, and chemistry has little to do with singles. It is in singles where America usually played itself out of Mosconi Cup contention over the pat decade.

Last year, the US demonstrated better skills than in the past decade, largely thanks to the coaching team of Johan and Jeremy Jones, but it won chiefly because of two superhuman efforts by Skyler Woodward in beating both Ouschan and Shaw in singles in the late stages, both double hill. Take those two wins away and Europe would have won it's ninth straight.

Captain Obvious is mistaken -- the Mosconi is won with skills development, good decision making and sufficient preparation, not chemistry and not wanting it bad enough. Shooting straight and thinking straight deliver the day.

Click to expand...

I agree with SJM. I have played many team tournaments and the vast majority of my wins come not with good friends, but with 4 other ringers that allow us to simply dominate the competition.


To be fair to the original poster, team chemistry isn't without value. I think chemistry can help people feel positive and handle the pressure so the team plays closer to it's potential. It just can't help a team play better than it's potential.

Meanwhile a team loaded with talent simply has more potential to draw on. And while they might not have the same chemistry, they are heavy favorites. Being heavy favorites also helps handle the pressure.

I have no problem with chemistry and would take it rather than leaving it, but one thing I would never do is pick weaker players with an attempt to invest in chemistry. Now I wouldn't want a cancer on the team that is going to impact everyone negatively, but as long as the person just plays good I'd be ok. Guys like Bergman or Mike D may not have much chemistry, but I'd prefer them to be on the team rather than Eberle if our goal is to put our best team together. If our goal is to put on a good show and support a business model based on participation then I think all is good.

Good topic for conversation and valid points on both sides.

sjm said:

Top be honest, I've never believed this. Team chemistry is one of many ingredients in a winning formula. I don't think Europe won eight of the last nine Mosconi events because of team chemistry but with superior skills. The key to winning the Mosconi Cup is the eleven singles matches, and chemistry has little to do with singles. It is in singles where America usually played itself out of Mosconi Cup contention over the pat decade.

Last year, the US demonstrated better skills than in the past decade, largely thanks to the coaching team of Johan and Jeremy Jones, but it won chiefly because of two superhuman efforts by Skyler Woodward in beating both Ouschan and Shaw in singles in the late stages, both double hill. Take those two wins away and Europe would have won it's ninth straight.

Captain Obvious is mistaken -- the Mosconi is won with skills development, good decision making and sufficient preparation, not chemistry and not wanting it bad enough. Shooting straight and thinking straight deliver the day.

Click to expand...

I think you are both right. You can't dismiss team chemistry. I have coached high school athletics for 20 years. I have had teams with off- the- charts ability and talent, yet with no leadership or chemistry and the results were way lower than expected. Conversely I have had teams with less talent, but who genuinely loved and cared for one another and ended up with more success than they probably should have gotten.

Yes at the highest level, talent and overall skill is probably going to win you more, but when a team cares about each other and don't want to let their teammates down, it can certainly make an individual focus more, concentrate more, and maybe execute better in the process.

I've always had a hard time finding similarities between the Mosconi Team USA and any of a) a pro baseball team, b) a pro football team, or c) a pro soccer team. In baseball, football or soccer, for months at a time, teams live together, train together, travel together, dine together, and socialize together. Playing for the team is the primary job of team members.

Contrastingly, I've always viewed the Mosconi as a once a year impromptu exhibition of top American and European stars. It's very entertaining but the team dynamic is minimal by comparison with real team sports.

If I recall correctly, in scotch doubles play, you can't field the same pair more than once over the four days of the Mosconi. A team has no time to mesh in one race to five. Chemistry is a slightly more significant matter at the World Cup of Pool, in which the same two man team must win five consecutive longer matches to win the event.

Yes, chemistry can help a little, but a team of five players that detest each other can win the Mosconi if they are sufficiently committed to their preparation and to playing their best.

I see both sides here... obviously talent/skills are requisite in this game,
but... the team 'building' over the year(s) of the core group who remain
substantially the same, by working together and sharing in the joy of
helping each other to the next levels of skill are liquid gold IMO... each
can mold it into a necklace to wear and call attention to themselves, or
they can invest it and have it return in multiples and reap the rewards.

$.02

td

RichSchultz said:

Stu, I take your point that you can’t post the same team repeatedly. Obviously, name a team that Europe could post with more team experience than Sky/SVB.

Albin/Mario don’t count as they likely won’t make it this year.

Click to expand...

If Ralf Souquet makes Team Europe, and he's still in contention to do so, the Filler/Souquet team is also experienced from their play as Team Germany at the World Cup of Pool.

As you note, SVB/Sky is even more experienced, so that's a plus for Team USA.

I believe that "team chemistry" is far more important in team sports and not as much in individual sports like Golf, Tennis or Pool. I've seen baseball, basketball and football teams get on a roll and win championships when they were not the favorites in any game/series they played in. If you follow the Ryder Cup in golf and the Davis Cup in tennis, you would see the best teams on paper won most of the time, regardless of how well the players got along.

In Pool the only teams I've seen that really jelled were some of the Europe teams during the last eight years and Team Philippines in every competition they played in. The early U.S MC teams also had great camaraderie, but they also had all the best players, which helped immensely. In present day pool I would take a Philippine team first and a Taiwan team second over all others. Having the best players helps a lot. Props to SJM for stating that.

It is my belief that rather than the presence of great chemistry, teams really just need the absence of a team jerk. You know, the guy who shakes his head when a teammate misses or plays a shot other than what the jerk thinks is the correct shot. I'll take respectfulness over camaraderie every time.
The skills thing is more of a "Captain Obvious" thing than anything else. This group does seem to get along better than most in recent years.
BTW, anyone catch the posting of the old North VS South speed team challenges on the Tube? Now those men were having a blast together! Very fun to watch.

RichSchultz said:

Ok, I know I am over simplifying but hear me out.

Europe may have a deeper talent pool, but in this type of event team chemistry is EVERYTHING. With the same core winning team, there is no underestimating the value that can be placed on all this time practicing/travelling/competing together.

You cannot manufacture chemistry...only comes with time.

Captain Obvious signing off.

Click to expand...

I agree with you 100 percent. I have always stated that several Team USAs in recent years did not seem to have the same "team spirit" as Team Europe, especially when they were in Vegas. Eveyrbody went their own way, and they didn't eat/sleep and hang out together. Some treated the Vegas trip as a family vacation instead of being with their fellow team members.

Great thread!

As an addition, I also credit Johan a great deal for the recent success of Team USA. He and now Jeremy Jones are both making Team USA full of team spirit and pride. The experience in Russia is a good example.

jokrswylde said:

I think you are both right. You can't dismiss team chemistry. I have coached high school athletics for 20 years. I have had teams with off- the- charts ability and talent, yet with no leadership or chemistry and the results were way lower than expected. Conversely I have had teams with less talent, but who genuinely loved and cared for one another and ended up with more success than they probably should have gotten.

Click to expand...

I agree with SJM.....team sports where you physically hand the ball or physically interact with other team members requires chemistry, ……..pool is not such a sport.

chemistry cant hurt, but its a minor factor....

Well it helped they didn’t send one of their stronger teams and it’s obvious that you’ve never played in team sports or learned little to nothing when you did. Team chemistry is everything.

sjm said:

Top be honest, I've never believed this. Team chemistry is one of many ingredients in a winning formula. I don't think Europe won eight of the last nine Mosconi events because of team chemistry but with superior skills. The key to winning the Mosconi Cup is the eleven singles matches, and chemistry has little to do with singles. It is in singles where America usually played itself out of Mosconi Cup contention over the pat decade.

Last year, the US demonstrated better skills than in the past decade, largely thanks to the coaching team of Johan and Jeremy Jones, but it won chiefly because of two superhuman efforts by Skyler Woodward in beating both Ouschan and Shaw in singles in the late stages, both double hill. Take those two wins away and Europe would have won it's ninth straight.

Captain Obvious is mistaken -- the Mosconi is won with skills development, good decision making and sufficient preparation, not chemistry and not wanting it bad enough. Shooting straight and thinking straight deliver the day.

Click to expand...

trob said:

Well it helped they didn’t send one of their stronger teams and it’s obvious that you’ve never played in team sports or learned little to nothing when you did. Team chemistry is everything.

Click to expand...

No, I'm obviously an ignoramus and moron intellectually incapable of learning from or assessing what I've seen up close at the many Mosconi Cup events I've attended. Guess I'll just defer to your exceptional scholarship on this "obviously uncontestable" point with which many in this thread have disagreed rather than extending a debate with someone who can't do better than to belittle someone with a differing opinion.

RichSchultz said:

Ok, I know I am over simplifying but hear me out.

Europe may have a deeper talent pool, but in this type of event team chemistry is EVERYTHING. With the same core winning team, there is no underestimating the value that can be placed on all this time practicing/travelling/competing together.

You cannot manufacture chemistry...only comes with time.

Captain Obvious signing off.

Click to expand...

Perhaps in the case of the doubles it helps.

Certainly it cannot hurt to have confidence in the other guy and even develop a certain pattern and rhythm of play. But the for the whole squad I'm not so sure it's a biggie. The MC is a one-off event. It's not like they're together playing out a season or even staying together through multiple rounds of a tournament.

Lou Figueroa

sjm said:

No, I'm obviously an ignoramus and moron intellectually incapable of learning form or assessing what I've seen up close at the many Mosconi Cup events I've attended. Guess I'll just defer to your exceptional scholarship on this "obviously uncontestable" point with which many in this thread have disagreed rather than extending a debate with someone who can't do better than to belittle someone with a differing opinion.

Click to expand...

Stu -- gettin' fiesty.

Actually -- for those that haven't figured it out -- Stu is one of the most insightful posters on this board. Regrettably, some individuals here cannot keep their eye on the ball.

Lou Figueroa

it can probably relieve some of the pressure, knowing that you have your team solidly behind you. and MC is all about pressure.

in doubles it's rather obviously a factor. just look at this years WCoP and dennis grabe being an a55..

lfigueroa said:

Stu -- gettin' fiesty.

Actually -- for those that haven't figured it out -- Stu is one of the most insightful posters on this board. Regrettably, some individuals here cannot keep their eye on the ball.

Lou Figueroa

Click to expand...

I concur 100%.

yup!

lfigueroa said:

Stu -- gettin' fiesty.

Actually -- for those that haven't figured it out -- Stu is one of the most insightful posters on this board. Regrettably, some individuals here cannot keep their eye on the ball.

Lou Figueroa

Click to expand...

There has been some Stu bashing in several threads over the last few days. Obviously by some people that were pretty clueless themselves. Stu is one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum and I never think I have gotten the lowdown on a big pool event until I read his report. Bashing Stu just makes the other person look foolish.

Back to the primary subject, several players surprised me over the years. Loners and hard core high stakes gamblers I didn't think they valued other people's opinions at all. Then they talk about the pressure in the Mosconi Cup not to let their team mates down, not to let their country down. Having good or great chemistry may not make much difference but poor chemistry is a killer. It seems to take the heart out of the players and they are just there going through the motions.

I think molding the players together as a team is important even though they don't give each other much direct support like in a team sport. The rest of the team there rooting you on is a lot nicer than deciding your match is a great time to wander off.

I don't think good chemistry alone can win the Cup, I do think bad chemistry can toss it away.

Hu

ShootingArts said:

There has been some Stu bashing in several threads over the last few days. Obviously by some people that were pretty clueless themselves. Stu is one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum and I never think I have gotten the lowdown on a big pool event until I read his report. Bashing Stu just makes the other person look foolish.

Click to expand...

I really didn't take exception to anything posted recently on AZB until the post in this thread that implied that I'm learning disabled to the point of being unable to comprehend an obvious and incontrovertible truth.

Outside of this, Hu, I feel I'm, with rare exception, treated the way I'd like to be on the forum, and I have the highest respect for most forum members, whether they agree or disagree with my views on any given subject.

Most of us have something unique to offer in these AZB parts, and most of us do so in a respectful, diplomatic, and informative manner. Dissension is both welcome and understood around here, but we must all avoid belittling our fellow posters just because they see things differently than we do. Most AZB posters continuously make the grade in this regard.

Thanks to all who made positive comments about me in this thread, but I'm just one of countless valuable members of the AZB forum.