Was it a foul?

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Catalin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Saturday I played in an 8-ball tournament and at one point during the game, the CB came resting again one of my object balls (frozen balls). They were wired for the pocket, I played the shot with elevated cue and made the ball.

My oponent jumped up, called foul and grabbed the CB off the table. There was no referee, we went to the tournament leader and explained the situation and he said it was hard to say without watching, but grated my opponent the foul.

I had actually just watched an instructional video by Dr Dave explaining that when then balls are frozen, it's not a foul even if you play straight through the CB so I was fairly confident on that shot.

Julian

Edit: Just to clarify, my oponent and the TD were of the opinion that although the balls were frozen, a foul was still possible and therefore awarded. There was no debate whether the balls were frozen or not.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Catalin said:
Saturday I played in an 8-ball tournament and at one point during the game, the CB came resting again one of my object balls (frozen balls). They were wired for the pocket, I played the shot with elevated cue and made the ball.

My oponent jumped up, called foul and grabbed the CB off the table. There was no referee, we went to the tournament leader and explained the situation and he said it was hard to say without watching, but grated my opponent the foul.

I had actually just watched an instructional video by Dr Dave explaining that when then balls are frozen, it's not a foul even if you play straight through the CB so I was fairly confident on that shot.

Julian
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No foul where i play.
 
I

Inaction

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You were shawed.

Sounds like a legal shot to me.

On a close call like that, a third party should be called over to watch and make the call.

It is a foul in VNEA if you touch the cueball even after an obvious foul before the opponent agrees it was a foul. (Or it was a rule at one time.)

A rerack would have been a better option than to award ball in hand.
 
R

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Problem shot rules wise, always has been. Different leagues still use different rules last time I checked, but most allow it; no foul.

Its a good reminder to ask about shooting through frozen balls at whatever place/tournament you are playing in. :thumbup:
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It’s not a foul. Yes you can play “through the ball” - it’s efftively a legal push shot. Having said that, yep there are leagues and tournaments that have weird rules regarding balls frozen or balls within a chalk or tip or something width of each other. Best to check beforehand.
 
F

Fenwick

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Inaction said:
You were shawed.

Sounds like a legal shot to me.

On a close call like that, a third party should be called over to watch and make the call.

It is a foul in VNEA if you touch the cueball even after an obvious foul before the opponent agrees it was a foul. (Or it was a rule at one time.)

A rerack would have been a better option than to award ball in hand.
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What he said.
 
H

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Catalin said:
Saturday I played in an 8-ball tournament and at one point during the game, the CB came resting again one of my object balls (frozen balls). They were wired for the pocket, I played the shot with elevated cue and made the ball.

My oponent jumped up, called foul and grabbed the CB off the table. There was no referee, we went to the tournament leader and explained the situation and he said it was hard to say without watching, but grated my opponent the foul.

I had actually just watched an instructional video by Dr Dave explaining that when then balls are frozen, it's not a foul even if you play straight through the CB so I was fairly confident on that shot.

Julian
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You didn’t declare the balls frozen, foul. Had you declared the balls frozen, no foul. Your opponent handled it like a jerk kind of. You fouled, know the rules accompanying these situations.
 
C

Catalin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hits 'em Hard said:
You didn’t declare the balls frozen, foul. Had you declared the balls frozen, no foul. Your opponent handled it like a jerk kind of. You fouled, know the rules accompanying these situations.
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I think that's an extreme position. My oponent did not contest the balls were frozen, but he insisted it was still a foul.

Julian
 
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Catalin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hits 'em Hard said:
Extreme? So you don’t like playing by the rules?
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I simply disagree with your statement that me not calling frozen balls leads to an automatic foul. Especially that my opponent did not disagree, so it's a moot point. You are the only one so far from all the posters to hold this opinion.

Julian
 
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ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Catalin said:
Saturday I played in an 8-ball tournament and at one point during the game, the CB came resting again one of my object balls (frozen balls). They were wired for the pocket, I played the shot with elevated cue and made the ball.

My oponent jumped up, called foul and grabbed the CB off the table. There was no referee, we went to the tournament leader and explained the situation and he said it was hard to say without watching, but grated my opponent the foul.

I had actually just watched an instructional video by Dr Dave explaining that when then balls are frozen, it's not a foul even if you play straight through the CB so I was fairly confident on that shot.

Julian
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Before shooting the shot, you should have confirmed to your opponent that the balls were indeed frozen, which changes the rules and allows you to shoot through the ball with a normal stroke, and you could have confirmed that with the TD before shooting the shot, so your opponent would know what is going on.
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Catalin said:
I think that's an extreme position. My oponent did not contest the balls were frozen, but he insisted it was still a foul.

Julian
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He doesn’t have to contest it. The onus is on you to state that the balls are frozen and for him to agree with it - and if he is a d1ck for you to call the tournament director over to verify that it’s frozen. All of this should happen before the shot.

Having said that, anyone who jumps up in a situation like that is a d1ck. Cos it was frozen.

Put it down to experience. And if the TD doesn’t learn from it and say call frozen balls when he calls the players in before the next tournament then do his job for him whenever something contentious arises.
 
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Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Catalin said:
I simply disagree with your statement that me not calling frozen balls leads to an automatic foul. Especially that my opponent did not disagree, so it's a moot point. You are the only one so far from all the posters to hold this opinion.

Julian
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Without calling them frozen, how do I know there isn’t a minuscule gap and the shot was actually a double hit foul? You failed to call them frozen, your opponent called you on a double hit foul as that’s the reaction he saw the balls take. This ones on you for not knowing the rules you’re competing under. Stop trying to make yourself feel better by blaming your opponent.
 
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Catalin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ChrisinNC said:
Before shooting the shot, you should have confirmed to your opponent that the balls were indeed frozen, which changes the rules and allows you to shoot through the ball with a normal stroke, and you could have confirmed that with the TD before shooting the shot, so your opponent would know what is going on.
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Please see my edit in the OP
Edit: Just to clarify, my oponent and the TD were of the opinion that although the balls were frozen, a foul was possible. There was no debate whether the balls were frozen or not.

Julian
 
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Catalin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Swighey said:
He doesn’t have to contest it. The onus is on you to state that the balls are frozen and for him to agree with it - and if he is a d1ck for you to call the tournament director over to verify that it’s frozen. All of this should happen before the shot.



Having said that, anyone who jumps up in a situation like that is a d1ck. Cos it was frozen.



Put it down to experience. And if the TD doesn’t learn from it and say call frozen balls when he calls the players in before the next tournament then do his job for him whenever something contentious arises.
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Please see my edit in the OP
Edit: Just to clarify, my oponent and the TD were of the opinion that although the balls were frozen, a foul was possible. There was no debate whether the balls were frozen or not.

Julian
 
H

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Catalin said:
Please see my edit in the OP
Edit: Just to clarify, my oponent and the TD were of the opinion that although the balls were frozen, a foul was possible. There was no debate whether the balls were frozen or not.

Julian
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There doesn’t need to be a debate. You didn’t call them frozen at the time of the shot, and that is the problem. And yes it is entirely possible to still foul when the balls are frozen. Just mark this down as a learning experience. It happens to everyone at some point.
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hits 'em Hard said:
There doesn’t need to be a debate. You didn’t call them frozen at the time of the shot, and that is the problem. And yes it is entirely possible to still foul when the balls are frozen. Just mark this down as a learning experience. It happens to everyone at some point.
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Agree with this entirely and yes it’s a learning experience. For what it’s worth, If I’d been your opponent in that spot I’d have let it go. So would many others but so wouldn’t many others. You can’t rely on us to be in the right mood, the right side of desperate to win at all costs or the right side of being the right person.
 
ctyhntr

ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
Where I play, calling the hit goes to the shooter, unless there is a referee present.
Prior to shooting, your opponent should have told you the balls were frozen and his concerns for double hit foul. He should have gone to get the referee, or have you agree that he watch the hit.

The referee made a ruling, based on the information available. At that point, any questions or issues regarding the decision should be taken up by the referee

When I'm running a tournament and placed in that position to make a ruling, I always remind both players if they have an issue with the decision, take it up with me. I'm not infallible, and if I see that I made an error in judgement, I'll try my best to correct it.
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
As has been said, frozen balls have to be declared

It is really a nonissue under most rules but not the way the OP wants things to be. Two balls can be touching, one or both touching the rail, they still aren't frozen until declared frozen. Nobody has to care what the physical state of the balls were, frozen or not they ain't frozen until everyone says so!

Silly seeming indeed but the OP is caught short because the balls weren't declared. At that point all kinds of rules can come into play. Must hit away from the ball, must elevate the cue 45 degrees, no guessing what.

I have never seen a set of pool rules that didn't require some common sense and judgment being used. However, if any competitor or official prefers to stick with the written rule it is hard to say they are asses or even lacking in ethics. It would seem more ethical to follow the written rule than intent but there are at least three threads seeing action right now concerning rules questions. Obviously pool rules need some updating and standardization.

I can only dream!

Hu
 
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