Old
  (#31)
Low500
AzB Silver Member
Low500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,347
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2017
   
10-22-2018, 06:45 AM

--------------

Last edited by Low500; 05-03-2019 at 01:54 PM.
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#32)
Dan White
AzB Silver Member
Dan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond repute
 
Dan White's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,647
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2005
   
10-22-2018, 03:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low500 View Post
You have no idea how many people YOU insult on nearly every post YOU make.
You don't like what I post...then the IGNORE feature is your friend. Use it.
You've been strutting around AZ like a peacock chirping about how great life is because you have all the troublemakers like me on ignore. You've been recommending that everybody put the troublemakers on ignore for months, yet curiously you yourself don't do it.



Personally I like to see what everybody has to say. Sometimes you can learn the most from people you disagree with.


Dan White
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#33)
z0nt0n3r
AzB Bronze Member
z0nt0n3r is on a distinguished road
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 36
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Nov 2014
   
10-25-2018, 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Pocket John View Post
I've waited a few months for someone to offer you a couple of tools that may help you correct the issues you may be having.

I'm attaching two images. The pvc pipes are 3/4" x 12" for use on a 9' table. If your practicing on a smaller table the pvc lengths should be shortened to maybe 8".

Align your body using your eyes where the two pipes appear to be in line then bend down into the shooting position..............are the two pipes still in line with each other?
Your bridge (the "V" if using an open bridge) hand, shooting shoulder, tip of your elbow and grip hand should all be on this line. What would really let you see your line up would be to take a frontal video with your Iphone or other recording device.

Lets assume the two pipes are NOT lined up when down in the shooting position. I encourage you to visit the the two youtube videos below, they tell you how to exactly align your body with the shot line.

It's going to take you 2 or 3 months of practicing the body alignment with the shot line every day before it becomes automatic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBFRln32uo&t=2s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPn3Wzp4NT8&t=9s

If after all of this, if your still having issues then your vision center may be off while in the standing position. That's something that can be addressed
later.

No comments about the tables condition please..........it's a well used tool.

Lot of work ahead for ya, but hang in there.

John
good info to consider.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#34)
z0nt0n3r
AzB Bronze Member
z0nt0n3r is on a distinguished road
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 36
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Nov 2014
   
10-25-2018, 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Zonton (if that really is your name ) as a fellow leftie I feel your pain! It is refreshing for a change not to have to convert everything I read from a rightie's point of view.

You are right that every change you make potentially changes something else. My experience is that you are not going to find one magic bullet that solves everything, but you may well find the one thing that causes the majority of the problem. If that is the case, then other issues become apparent. For instance, you might get the alignment right but then have a problem with not having a smooth transition so you miss just like you did before, and then you have to work on those things to continue your improvement.

To illustrate the point further, I'd say that you've made certain conclusions that might even be wrong. You said that you stroke back off line and as a result you twist your wrist to bring it back in line. What if it is the other way around? Consider this: Maybe you tend to twist your wrist as you come forward and that is causing you to bring the cue back off line, which would be the opposite of what you think is happening. I think every player tends to curl the cue under since the fingers wrap around the cue from one side. When you jab the stroke or hit hard it is natural for the fingers to tighten and curl. Your brain is clever so it will figure out how to pocket balls when you are twisting the cue. Maybe in your case you learned to take the cue back cockeyed to compensate. Just food for thought. Everyone understands that the cue should not rotate as you shoot. That is easy to see but not always easy to fix. I would make sure you are not twisting that cue AT ALL before fiddling too much with your vision. Maybe you'll get lucky and things will fall into place when you stop curling the wrist and/or fingers. Shoot slowly at first and do what you have to do to pocket balls without twisting the cue.

I'll give you one example of what I was dealing with as it might help. I found that when I took the cue back and it stopped before going forward again I was pulling the cue in toward my body just a little before I went forward again. It was like clockwork and amazingly predictable. Pull back straight, pull cue in maybe a quarter inch, then stroke straight forward. This worked fine for years but at higher speeds things broke down as it does for most people, and I felt this "swoop" had to go. So what caused me to make the swoop? It was my visual alignment. When I got down on a shot the cue would look straight through the line of aim but in reality the butt end of the cue was too far away from my body. Again, it LOOKED perfect from the half of the shaft forward that I could see, but it wasn't. My brain learned to pull the cue inward onto the real shot line just before I came forward with the cue so that the ball would be pocketed. I personally don't think anymore that having the cue "look" lined up before the shot is all that necessary. What is necessary is that the cue IS perfectly on line and perfectly stroked. Whatever that looks like to you will become the new normal and like second nature, IMO.

I'm realizing that I can go on for too long here so I'll cut it short. IMO, the single most important thing I did was to get an app like Coach's Eye to allow you to draw lines over the video for reference points. You also need to be very precise about getting a straight in shot and a camera angle that is exactly on this line. If the camera is off line it will fool you (use the grid lines to help with aligning two balls). You don't need lasers etc if you have that. That's assuming you are working on this yourself and not getting in touch with a good instructor. I think, personally, at the higher levels of play you need to figure out things for yourself, but a check up with an instructor that you trust is a good thing.

Disclaimer and fine print: I am not an instructor. I'm simply relaying my experience with the stroke.
i haven't thought of your first idea so i'll take a look at it next time i practice.the problem could be that i haven't learnt to physically move the cue in a straight line rather body alignment or vision center
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#35)
z0nt0n3r
AzB Bronze Member
z0nt0n3r is on a distinguished road
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 36
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Nov 2014
   
05-26-2019, 04:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Zonton (if that really is your name ) as a fellow leftie I feel your pain! It is refreshing for a change not to have to convert everything I read from a rightie's point of view.

You are right that every change you make potentially changes something else. My experience is that you are not going to find one magic bullet that solves everything, but you may well find the one thing that causes the majority of the problem. If that is the case, then other issues become apparent. For instance, you might get the alignment right but then have a problem with not having a smooth transition so you miss just like you did before, and then you have to work on those things to continue your improvement.

To illustrate the point further, I'd say that you've made certain conclusions that might even be wrong. You said that you stroke back off line and as a result you twist your wrist to bring it back in line. What if it is the other way around? Consider this: Maybe you tend to twist your wrist as you come forward and that is causing you to bring the cue back off line, which would be the opposite of what you think is happening. I think every player tends to curl the cue under since the fingers wrap around the cue from one side. When you jab the stroke or hit hard it is natural for the fingers to tighten and curl. Your brain is clever so it will figure out how to pocket balls when you are twisting the cue. Maybe in your case you learned to take the cue back cockeyed to compensate. Just food for thought. Everyone understands that the cue should not rotate as you shoot. That is easy to see but not always easy to fix. I would make sure you are not twisting that cue AT ALL before fiddling too much with your vision. Maybe you'll get lucky and things will fall into place when you stop curling the wrist and/or fingers. Shoot slowly at first and do what you have to do to pocket balls without twisting the cue.

I'll give you one example of what I was dealing with as it might help. I found that when I took the cue back and it stopped before going forward again I was pulling the cue in toward my body just a little before I went forward again. It was like clockwork and amazingly predictable. Pull back straight, pull cue in maybe a quarter inch, then stroke straight forward. This worked fine for years but at higher speeds things broke down as it does for most people, and I felt this "swoop" had to go. So what caused me to make the swoop? It was my visual alignment. When I got down on a shot the cue would look straight through the line of aim but in reality the butt end of the cue was too far away from my body. Again, it LOOKED perfect from the half of the shaft forward that I could see, but it wasn't. My brain learned to pull the cue inward onto the real shot line just before I came forward with the cue so that the ball would be pocketed. I personally don't think anymore that having the cue "look" lined up before the shot is all that necessary. What is necessary is that the cue IS perfectly on line and perfectly stroked. Whatever that looks like to you will become the new normal and like second nature, IMO.

I'm realizing that I can go on for too long here so I'll cut it short. IMO, the single most important thing I did was to get an app like Coach's Eye to allow you to draw lines over the video for reference points. You also need to be very precise about getting a straight in shot and a camera angle that is exactly on this line. If the camera is off line it will fool you (use the grid lines to help with aligning two balls). You don't need lasers etc if you have that. That's assuming you are working on this yourself and not getting in touch with a good instructor. I think, personally, at the higher levels of play you need to figure out things for yourself, but a check up with an instructor that you trust is a good thing.

Disclaimer and fine print: I am not an instructor. I'm simply relaying my experience with the stroke.
it's been a while since i've posted here but i found what caused the majority of the problem and you may find it interesting.because i'm slightly left-eye dominant i assumed that i needed to align my left eye to the shot line from the standing position and then have the cue slightly towards my left eye when down on the shot.but when i video-taped myself head-on on a straight in shot,i found that i was leaning too much to my right in order to align my left eye,so much that my head was going completely off the shooting line when getting down for the shot and that was causing me to aim offline and compensating by twisting my wrist on a lot of shots.the fix was to align my opposite (right) eye in the standing position to see the shot line,then get down and have the cue slightly towards the left eye as i did before.to achieve this i also needed to twist my body a little bit when getting down on the shot to make my shoulders more angled instead of square to the shot because i use a more square snooker stance.now i think my cueing still needs a bit of improvement,(maybe because i shoot with my elbow a little outside of the line) but my game has improved massively since making this change because now i aim correctly on most shots.

Last edited by z0nt0n3r; 05-27-2019 at 04:16 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#36)
z0nt0n3r
AzB Bronze Member
z0nt0n3r is on a distinguished road
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 36
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Nov 2014
   
05-27-2019, 03:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
Hittin off enter a 1/16th of an inch will give me one diamond over for example so take note of that when doing such routines; it’s easy tho can be difficult and it does take very high precision and good alignment to accomplish it perfect.....

First you must use a ball where you can check the chalk mark for the proper hit; the players stroke could be true while their alignment is bad, or vice versa.

It could also very well be the two issues you mentioned. More info is needed for a proper troubleshooting and diagnosis.

Video analysis would tell us the true story

-greyghost


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
yes when doing this routine i must set up the cue ball and a chalk on the rail in a perfectly straight line,if they are a little off the cue ball will not come back to your tip no matter how hard you try, (maybe it will barely hit the edge of the CB on the way back)

Last edited by z0nt0n3r; 05-27-2019 at 04:02 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#37)
Dan White
AzB Silver Member
Dan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond repute
 
Dan White's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,647
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2005
   
05-27-2019, 04:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by z0nt0n3r View Post
it's been a while since i've posted here but i found what caused the majority of the problem and you may find it interesting.because i'm slightly left-eye dominant i assumed that i needed to align my left eye to the shot line from the standing position and then have the cue slightly towards my left eye when down on the shot.but when i video-taped myself head-on on a straight in shot,i found that i was leaning too much to my right in order to align my left eye,so much that my head was going completely off the shooting line when getting down for the shot and that was causing me to aim offline and compensating by twisting my wrist on a lot of shots.the fix was to align my opposite (right) eye in the standing position to see the shot line,then get down and have the cue slightly towards the left eye as i did before.to achieve this i also needed to twist my body a little bit when getting down on the shot to make my shoulders more angled instead of square to the shot because i use a more square snooker stance.now i think my cueing still needs a bit of improvement,(maybe because i shoot with my elbow a little outside of the line) but my game has improved massively since making this change because now i aim correctly on most shots.
That is interesting, congrats on the discovery. Sounds like you might be drifting sideways as you come down on the shot? You should consider posting before and after videos here so people can see what the stroke looks like now.

I personally don't believe the "vision center," as people call it, is all it is cracked up to be. Just because you feel comfortable in a certain position, doesn't mean you can stroke the cue in a straight line from there. You just have to experiment with it and if part of the solution is moving your vision one way or the other, you'll get used to it soon enough.

If you are hitting the ball straighter now, you should feel a more solid hit on the cue ball. There is a difference in feel between hitting dead center vs a tiny amount left or right.


Dan White
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#38)
z0nt0n3r
AzB Bronze Member
z0nt0n3r is on a distinguished road
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 36
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Nov 2014
   
05-27-2019, 08:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
That is interesting, congrats on the discovery. Sounds like you might be drifting sideways as you come down on the shot? You should consider posting before and after videos here so people can see what the stroke looks like now.

I personally don't believe the "vision center," as people call it, is all it is cracked up to be. Just because you feel comfortable in a certain position, doesn't mean you can stroke the cue in a straight line from there. You just have to experiment with it and if part of the solution is moving your vision one way or the other, you'll get used to it soon enough.

If you are hitting the ball straighter now, you should feel a more solid hit on the cue ball. There is a difference in feel between hitting dead center vs a tiny amount left or right.
thanks,yes in the videos of the old technique you can clearly see my head making a zig-zag as i'm getting down on the shot.i will also take new videos of the new technique to see if what i'm describing here about the new routine is correct and to see if i'm still making a zig-zag with my head.i will also experiment with shooting with my right-eye with the new routine to see if it produces better results.

as far as the vision center goes,i believe whatever position makes you aim/cue better is the best for you and as you said you have to experiment and try all shooting positions.

the new technique makes me get on the correct line of aim more consistently now so i'm almost certain that my cueing has become straighter because now i don't need to cue incorrectly to find the correct line because of landing on the wrong line.but having said that i don't think that i'm hitting the ball as accurately as you are describing.it sounds like you are working on extreme details to make your stroke perfectly straight,i have the same goal too but now i'm satisfied with the current results and i won't work on fine details anymore for now unless i start playing inconsistently again but because i'm curious i may post the videos sometime in the future so maybe we can discuss this even further

Last edited by z0nt0n3r; 05-27-2019 at 10:20 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#39)
Tennesseejoe
AzB Silver Member
Tennesseejoe has a reputation beyond reputeTennesseejoe has a reputation beyond reputeTennesseejoe has a reputation beyond reputeTennesseejoe has a reputation beyond reputeTennesseejoe has a reputation beyond reputeTennesseejoe has a reputation beyond reputeTennesseejoe has a reputation beyond reputeTennesseejoe has a reputation beyond reputeTennesseejoe has a reputation beyond reputeTennesseejoe has a reputation beyond reputeTennesseejoe has a reputation beyond repute
 
Tennesseejoe's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,888
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Middle Tennessee
   
05-29-2019, 11:40 AM

Not a lot of thinking to do this ...but it works

Put the cue ball on the head line 1/2 inch off the rail. Now put an object ball a couple inches past the side pocket on the same long rail, also 1/2 inch off the rail. Shoot this several times with follow. This will give you some feeling of shooting straight.

You do not have to over think this situation.


"Man can neither love nor hate what he does not know." Cicero

Last edited by Tennesseejoe; 05-29-2019 at 11:47 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#40)
Dan White
AzB Silver Member
Dan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond reputeDan White has a reputation beyond repute
 
Dan White's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,647
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2005
   
06-01-2019, 08:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by z0nt0n3r View Post
the new technique makes me get on the correct line of aim more consistently now so i'm almost certain that my cueing has become straighter because now i don't need to cue incorrectly to find the correct line because of landing on the wrong line.but having said that i don't think that i'm hitting the ball as accurately as you are describing.it sounds like you are working on extreme details to make your stroke perfectly straight,i have the same goal too but now i'm satisfied with the current results and i won't work on fine details anymore for now unless i start playing inconsistently again but because i'm curious i may post the videos sometime in the future so maybe we can discuss this even further
Makes sense. Improvement in pool is an ongoing journey where you will gain a new skill, move on to other things, and eventually come back to that skill for further refinement.


Dan White
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#41)
Scott Lee
AzB Silver Member

Scott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond reputeScott Lee has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 15,871
vCash: 4100
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Now living in Largo FL
   
06-02-2019, 01:12 PM

To the OP...get some quality video analysis of your stroke. That will tell you a lot about what you're doing. Any kind of chicken wing movement, in or out, is due to initiating the swing from the shoulder (piston stroke), instead of a pendulum stroke, which works from the elbow down only. There need not be any involvement of the shoulder, and if you do, expect that your stroke will waver and vary. Swing from the elbow down, and you have a hinge, which will deliver the cuestick in a straight line...unless you screw it up by gripping too tightly. BTW, all involvement of the shoulder begins with gripping the cue tightly.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Kramden View Post
Bend your arm at the elbow. The only way your hand can move, is directly toward your shoulder.
If your hand moves to the left or right of your shoulder it has been internally or externally rotated.

The chicken wing moves the cue sideways, or wobbles toward the side unless you compensate.
It's possible to compensate by turning your wrist, but you need good timing that's hard to repeat.

.


PBIA Master Instructor
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 3 of 3 123

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.