How long a backstroke?

Island Drive · Jul 3, 2020

dquarasr said:
I've noticed my accuracy improves when I shorten my backstroke.

I realize it is difficult to speak in generalities and what might work for someone might not work for me, but is there a recommended length for the backstroke?

no

Good Question....

Just to clarify your thought, is it shortening....or ''Pausing'' before delivering the cue to the target.
Some think it means the same, it doesn't.

Another possible understanding of what your saying....of the ''shot'' that may be of help.

Are you asking us, how much should your arm swing backwards past (bottom dead center) 6 o'clock, before delivering the cue to the cue ball?

This sounds like the question, my answer, what ever feels good thru excessive play, and what holds up under Pressure.

Another way to perceive this you could look at Allen Hopkins another extreme example of getting the job done THE OPPOSITE OF ALL GREAT PLAYERS, NO backstroke....just an East Coast punch stroke/THROWING MOTION, one of a kind amongst his peers....and probably the entire generation of players from the Mosconi days and before. With the newer faster cloths, this swing action it's proven/effective....but,NOT with the old/slow rag cloth of the 60's and before.

Hope these thoughts, help you process properly what's truly going on or not.

FranCrimi · Jul 6, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
That is untrue. I'd like you to see a shot I use in teaching.

At a group clinic, I'll invite a volunteer to play safe and leave the cue and eight balls near or on the rail:

They typically try for a short backstroke with a long bridge, to make a delicate forward stroke. They also typically hit the balls hard, with a poked, sloppy stroke, leaving the incoming player a great shot.

I reset the shot and help them take a stance with a half-inch bridge. Yes, a tiny bit of cue tip only, their hand almost atop the balls. Then I encourage them to take a full smooth backstroke and a full forward stroke based on that short intentional backstroke.

It sometimes takes a second or third try for them to get the feel of this gentle nursing shot, but after, their safety play is transformed. Happy students who've blown this kind of safe for years are now able to return the position above or worsen it for the incoming player, 50 out of 50 tries.

Hall-of-famers used 7-inch bridges. I heard what you said about long bridges and aim, but what I say is valid also.

It's not just about delicate safeties, either. Shorter bridging and full, smooth backstrokes would help most amateurs lock in cue ball speed and gain great stroke control overall.

I'm well aware that pros can use super-long bridges with short backstrokes beautifully, but that touch is lacking for most players. Unfortunately, it bears repeating, your claim that I don't know what I'm doing is shown false by the many students I've seen improve, vastly, quickly, using the short bridge method.

I'm giving you the chance to show a new wrinkle to your students that will help them fast. We can learn from one another, grow together.

Who the heck uses a long bridge length on this kind of shot? You're saying I condone a long bridge length on this type of shot with a short stroke? Geez Matt, your lack of understanding of this game is really showing. The solution to this type of shot is to stand taller. That takes care of the visual issues and allows the player to use a shorter bridge length.

Like I wrote before Matt. Become a better player and you'll understand more. Right now you're not doing your clients any justice.

BilliardsAbout · Jul 7, 2020

FranCrimi said:
Who the heck uses a long bridge length on this kind of shot? You're saying I condone a long bridge length on this type of shot with a short stroke? Geez Matt, your lack of understanding of this game is really showing. The solution to this type of shot is to stand taller. That takes care of the visual issues and allows the player to use a shorter bridge length.

Like I wrote before Matt. Become a better player and you'll understand more. Right now you're not doing your clients any justice.

Fran, I shared advice I give to amateurs, I'm not talking about what you do to shoot this shot. Plus your answer is both vague and fails to address what I actually wrote about a super-short bridge, not a "shorter bridge".

I use unorthodox methods but I know what I'm doing and "do my clients justice". As I've written above, in this case, an epic fail becomes a student who can execute a safe here every time. I suggest a teaching competition. We'll both take an AZ student, video a one-hour lesson with them in turn, and air it at AZ. AZ members can post as to what they liked and disliked about both our lessons with the same student. Sound good?

sparkle84 · Jul 7, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
Fran, I shared advice I give to amateurs, I'm not talking about what you do to shoot this shot. Plus your answer is both vague and fails to address what I actually wrote about a super-short bridge, not a "shorter bridge".

I use unorthodox methods but I know what I'm doing and "do my clients justice". As I've written above, in this case, an epic fail becomes a student who can execute a safe here every time. I suggest a teaching competition. We'll both take an AZ student, video a one-hour lesson with them in turn, and air it at AZ. AZ members can post as to what they liked and disliked about both our lessons with the same student. Sound good?

Can't wait for this. Make it PPV, I'd be happy to pay. Unfortunately it'll never happen. You've never even been able to provide a single link to a video that provides an example verifying any of the bizarre stuff you come up with on thread after thread.
Oh I'm sorry, everything you say is gospel proven by the fact you've shown techniques to hundreds of students in dozens of clinics who after one lesson jump 100 Fargo points immediately.
You know what baffles me? After I and others have disputed the veracity of your claims time after time why hasn't at least one of these students popped up to verify that your teaching has helped them. None of them are on this forum?

BilliardsAbout · Jul 8, 2020

sparkle84 said:
Can't wait for this. Make it PPV, I'd be happy to pay. Unfortunately it'll never happen. You've never even been able to provide a single link to a video that provides an example verifying any of the bizarre stuff you come up with on thread after thread.
Oh I'm sorry, everything you say is gospel proven by the fact you've shown techniques to hundreds of students in dozens of clinics who after one lesson jump 100 Fargo points immediately.
You know what baffles me? After I and others have disputed the veracity of your claims time after time why hasn't at least one of these students popped up to verify that your teaching has helped them. None of them are on this forum?

Hi Sparkle,

I never said "Go up 100 Fargo points". I said "Go up two points in handicap because it's typical they win all their matches for many weeks, even after a single lesson".

I also posted a video here at AZ to demonstrate a stroke movement you asked about, so that's also untrue of you to say.

Also, you started an instructor page about me that now includes compliments from Steve Lillis, Allan P. Sand and my students, the people you feel "don't exist at AZ".

And you need not pay to see my lessons, as I've offered you free lessons, which you've refused. This offer still stands--I believe in making friends, not enemies.

How about it? Rather than "doubt the veracity of my claims", why not take a free lesson(s) so that many of the struggles you've had (for decades now) can be eliminated? What do you have to lose except bad play?

dquarasr · Jul 9, 2020

Matt (BilliardsAbout) graciously volunteered to conduct a virtual video conference lesson with me last night. He made some suggestions to align my vision center with my cue and shot line, such that it is fairly rote to follow simple steps to get down on the shot consistently on my intended shot line.

Of course I still need to work on my aim, but I am fairly confident that stance, vision, and stroke, will become much more automatic and repeatable.

Thanks, Matt, your time spent with me was valuable and most welcome. Oh, offered this voluntarily and without a fee. So, Matt, thanks for being a good ambassador for the sport.

FranCrimi · Jul 10, 2020

dquarasr said:
Matt (BilliardsAbout) graciously volunteered to conduct a virtual video conference lesson with me last night. He made some suggestions to align my vision center with my cue and shot line, such that it is fairly rote to follow simple steps to get down on the shot consistently on my intended shot line.

Of course I still need to work on my aim, but I am fairly confident that stance, vision, and stroke, will become much more automatic and repeatable.

Thanks, Matt, your time spent with me was valuable and most welcome. Oh, offered this voluntarily and without a fee. So, Matt, thanks for being a good ambassador for the sport.

Oh well, heck. That gives him total credibility now, right? Look, I can understand your appreciation for free advice, but you really don't know how good or not good advice you get is. It's not just you, it's everyone's problem. Who do you believe? Who do you not believe? Well, there are some basic teaching 101 things that you can't go wrong with, regardless of who teaches it. But it's the subtle stuff that you have to be careful about when taking someone's advice. Just be careful and do your research about who you're getting your information from.

BilliardsAbout · Jul 10, 2020

FranCrimi said:
Oh well, heck. That gives him total credibility now, right? Look, I can understand your appreciation for free advice, but you really don't know how good or not good advice you get is. It's not just you, it's everyone's problem. Who do you believe? Who do you not believe? Well, there are some basic teaching 101 things that you can't go wrong with, regardless of who teaches it. But it's the subtle stuff that you have to be careful about when taking someone's advice. Just be careful and do your research about who you're getting your information from.

We identified the student's "line of sight" or vision center, limited his head rotation to improve his vision of cut angles, and gave him a 1-2-3 stance to bring his vision center over the line. As stance was simplified and corrected, alignment and all is much better--he looks like a pro in his stance, compact, lovely.

I then corrected the student's aim ideas and taught him a pro aim system. Time will tell, but pocketing percentage went up immediately. An APA 3-4, the student played Eight Ball ghost after the lesson and ran out in two innings after rolling a bit long on the 8-ball and needing to kick at it.

I already had total credibility, by the way, including hundreds of improved students and the world's largest pool site with the most articles and biggest readership, an instructional book and DVD, three years of instructional series and further articles for InsidePool, and projects, tournaments and trick shot shows with top pros and teachers. I've also distributed a line of playing cues, and sold and marketed and invented pool products. My methods are unorthodox but my knowledge of all aspects of the game, its history, equipment, and playing and teaching pool, snooker and billiards, is sizable.

I'm qualified to argue with you, Fran--my student is not. I'm asking you kindly to not hassle my students when they post at AZ--the more so in this case, since the free lesson was for the OP, whom you failed to help on this thread--while you persisted in attacking me on the same thread.

You just took a new AZ contributor and hassled them for posting about a positive experience with me. That's not what someone needs to hear about a good lesson--doubt what you learned!

I'm asking the mods by way of this post to review Fran Crimi's and Sparkle's abusive posts on this thread and others, to take appropriate action.

Island Drive · Jul 10, 2020

Yep Fran, For Sure.... there's allot of good and not good info out there about ''how to play''. I began teaching, when I saw so many NOT explain the game in a way that is understood/process.

For Me....What I did that helped ALLOT was.... ''understanding'' who the person ''is'' that I'm teaching, are they a farmer or a pilot or truckdriver?

To help the lesson with explanations. I always gave each new student, in their first lesson an extra 30 minutes.

I needed this time for us both, to get tho know their background.
What and how they process ''what they see'' when they are playing the game.

I would always find/correct 2 things that I did not like, and corrected then with explanations and logic. I also said, if they play allot, it will become second nature in 2 - 3 mths.

Also, I tell em, you've chosen thee most difficult game to master, don't expect allot.

BilliardsAbout · Jul 10, 2020

Island Drive said:
Yep Fran, For Sure.... there's allot of good and not good info out there about ''how to play''. I began teaching, when I saw so many NOT explaing the game in a way on can understand/process.

For Me....What I did that helped ALLOT was.... ''understanding'' who the person ''is'' that I'm teaching, are they a farmer or a pilot or truckdriver?

To help the lesson with explanations. I always gave each new student, in their first lesson an extra 30 minutes.

I needed this time for us both, to get tho know their background.
What and how they process ''what they see'' when they are playing the game.

I would always find/correct 2 things that I did not like, and corrected then with explanations and logic. I also said, if they play allot, it will become second nature in 2 - 3 mths.

Also, I tell em, you've chosen thee most difficult game to master, don't expect allot.

And do you tell this to other people's students, after they report that they had a great experience with a different teacher? You do not.

Island Drive · Jul 10, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
And do you tell this to other people's students, after they report that they had a great experience with a different teacher? You do not.

Never have had that thought.

sparkle84 · Jul 10, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
We identified the student's "line of sight" or vision center, limited his head rotation to improve his vision of cut angles, and gave him a 1-2-3 stance to bring his vision center over the line. As stance was simplified and corrected, alignment and all is much better--he looks like a pro in his stance, compact, lovely.

I then corrected the student's aim ideas and taught him a pro aim system. Time will tell, but pocketing percentage went up immediately. An APA 3-4, the student played Eight Ball ghost after the lesson and ran out in two innings after rolling a bit long on the 8-ball and needing to kick at it.

I already had total credibility, by the way, including hundreds of improved students and the world's largest pool site with the most articles and biggest readership, an instructional book and DVD, three years of instructional series and further articles for InsidePool, and projects, tournaments and trick shot shows with top pros and teachers. I've also distributed a line of playing cues, and sold and marketed and invented pool products. My methods are unorthodox but my knowledge of all aspects of the game, its history, equipment, and playing and teaching pool, snooker and billiards, is sizable.

I'm qualified to argue with you, Fran--my student is not. I'm asking you kindly to not hassle my students when they post at AZ--the more so in this case, since the free lesson was for the OP, whom you failed to help on this thread--while you persisted in attacking me on the same thread.

You just took a new AZ contributor and hassled them for posting about a positive experience with me. That's not what someone needs to hear about a good lesson--doubt what you learned!

I'm asking the mods by way of this post to review Fran Crimi's and Sparkle's abusive posts on this thread and others, to take appropriate action.

When will the video be up on Youtube so we can all be dazzled by your expertise. I'm especially looking forward to the "Pro Aim System"

BilliardsAbout · Jul 10, 2020

sparkle84 said:
When will the video be up on Youtube so we can all be dazzled by your expertise. I'm especially looking forward to the "Pro Aim System"

Again, mods, Sparkle needs to be held accountable for his abusive posts.

Bob Jewett · Jul 10, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
Again, mods, Sparkle needs to be held accountable for his abusive posts.

I think there is only one mod at this point, Mr. Wilson having been excessed.

I doubt that the moderator monitors every thread.

The standard method for reporting spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts is to click on the little warning icon that will appear close to or on the post. It looks like this, more or less:

bbb · Jul 10, 2020

sparkle84 said:
When will the video be up on Youtube so we can all be dazzled by your expertise. I'm especially looking forward to the "Pro Aim System"

i too would be interested in this aiming system

FranCrimi · Jul 11, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
We identified the student's "line of sight" or vision center, limited his head rotation to improve his vision of cut angles, and gave him a 1-2-3 stance to bring his vision center over the line. As stance was simplified and corrected, alignment and all is much better--he looks like a pro in his stance, compact, lovely.

I then corrected the student's aim ideas and taught him a pro aim system. Time will tell, but pocketing percentage went up immediately. An APA 3-4, the student played Eight Ball ghost after the lesson and ran out in two innings after rolling a bit long on the 8-ball and needing to kick at it.

I already had total credibility, by the way, including hundreds of improved students and the world's largest pool site with the most articles and biggest readership, an instructional book and DVD, three years of instructional series and further articles for InsidePool, and projects, tournaments and trick shot shows with top pros and teachers. I've also distributed a line of playing cues, and sold and marketed and invented pool products. My methods are unorthodox but my knowledge of all aspects of the game, its history, equipment, and playing and teaching pool, snooker and billiards, is sizable.

I'm qualified to argue with you, Fran--my student is not. I'm asking you kindly to not hassle my students when they post at AZ--the more so in this case, since the free lesson was for the OP, whom you failed to help on this thread--while you persisted in attacking me on the same thread. In fact, I just called her and asked her to be on standby for a letter.

You just took a new AZ contributor and hassled them for posting about a positive experience with me. That's not what someone needs to hear about a good lesson--doubt what you learned!

I'm asking the mods by way of this post to review Fran Crimi's and Sparkle's abusive posts on this thread and others, to take appropriate action.

Your student? You mean the one who posted a question here and who we all gave free advice to, including yourself? YOUR student? When did this person become YOUR student? I'd like to know. My lawyer would like to know. I don't take too kindly to libelous accusations of student tampering. You had better clear this up now or I won't take this lightly. If that person states here that they are officially your student. I won't answer any of their questions or give them advice anymore. But if they aren't your exclusive student, you're going to have some explaining to do for your libelous accusation.

FranCrimi · Jul 11, 2020

Island Drive said:
Yep Fran, For Sure.... there's allot of good and not good info out there about ''how to play''. I began teaching, when I saw so many NOT explain the game in a way that is understood/process.

For Me....What I did that helped ALLOT was.... ''understanding'' who the person ''is'' that I'm teaching, are they a farmer or a pilot or truckdriver?

To help the lesson with explanations. I always gave each new student, in their first lesson an extra 30 minutes.

I needed this time for us both, to get tho know their background.
What and how they process ''what they see'' when they are playing the game.

I would always find/correct 2 things that I did not like, and corrected then with explanations and logic. I also said, if they play allot, it will become second nature in 2 - 3 mths.

Also, I tell em, you've chosen thee most difficult game to master, don't expect allot.

Same here, Bill. I began teaching because I remember thinking so often as I was learning the game --- Who do I trust? Many came and went and there were times I thought as a student, that I would pull my hair out because I just wasn't getting what they were saying, or it just didn't make sense to me.

It wasn't until I tore my own game apart bit by bit and put it back together, one bit at a time, that I can relate to any point a player is at in their learning process. I was there and all the different stages, myself.

I learned if I could read the mind of the player I was helping while he was playing, then I could connect with him. If a teacher is just superficially looking at what a player is doing on a table, and not understanding how he's thinking and feeling, then you can only do a half-baked job in helping them.

Every word I share with my clients personally and what I write in this forum comes from the blood, sweat and tears of what I went through as a player. I think you're the same way, Bill.

sparkle84 · Jul 11, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
Hi Sparkle,

I never said "Go up 100 Fargo points". I said "Go up two points in handicap because it's typical they win all their matches for many weeks, even after a single lesson".

I also posted a video here at AZ to demonstrate a stroke movement you asked about, so that's also untrue of you to say.

Also, you started an instructor page about me that now includes compliments from Steve Lillis, Allan P. Sand and my students, the people you feel "don't exist at AZ".

And you need not pay to see my lessons, as I've offered you free lessons, which you've refused. This offer still stands--I believe in making friends, not enemies.

How about it? Rather than "doubt the veracity of my claims", why not take a free lesson(s) so that many of the struggles you've had (for decades now) can be eliminated? What do you have to lose except bad play?

Look up the definition of paraphrase. I said 100 Fargo points / you said 2 skill levels.
I'm paraphrasing and also somewhat exaggerating to get the point across that you constantly make statements that have no basis in fact, that virtually no one believes, then when challenged try to defend your assertions with more gibberish.

Let's put the 8 second video link up so others can grasp what your trying to demonstrate cuz I have to admit I couldn't. http://bondfanevents.com/wp-content/...822_092718.mp4 **Well the link doesn't work, maybe Matt can fix it.
Oh and the reason it's so short is Matt didn't want it to take to long to download or slow down our computers with too much data.

Might as well link the other thread also. https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=497735
People can decide for themselves how credible the 4 posters you're talking about are. I'd just point out that none of them has posted since, 3 of the 4 have 7 posts between them and the 4th hadn't posted for years.

Next you just arbitrarily state that I've been struggling for decades and are in desperate need of (your) help which you'll provide for free cuz you want to be friends. A few posts back you were quoting scripture that inferred the devil had me in his grip and hoped that the Lord would show me the error of my ways so I could escape Satans clutches.
Now you've decided I should be banned. How bout this, I'll ban myself.
Going back to the 14.1 forum where I belong.

dquarasr · Jul 11, 2020

What is up with all the animus on this website?!?

I came here expecting to find like-minded individuals who enjoy the game. I expected sharing of ideas, techniques, general discussion about the game, and the like. What did I find? A TON of elitist comments and attitude. While there are many, many helpful contributors here, the overwhelming tone of this site is for the gambler, the pro, the hustler, and the arrogant with comments mostly exclusive, not inclusive.

I have taken one paid lesson nearly a year ago, and I won't name names - I went with a goal of working on fixing my mechanics; what I got for my one hour lesson was 10 minutes of an analysis of my stroke and stance, and 50 minutes of "standard" "do these standard draw and follow speed control drills" which did nothing to help my shot making.

Matt volunteered to help me. Scott Lee also had some conversations with me. Unfortunately, with COVID-19 furlough, I am not in a position to invest the not insignificant $$, while I"m sure they'd be worth it, for a lesson.

Scott volunteered to help me think about my game, what I do and why I do it, and I appreciate it. Matt took it a step further and offered a virtual video lesson, which we did this week. From both I gained valuable input.

What I cannot understand are the aggressive comments and the elitist tone of so many posts. So, and I'm SURE offenders don't really give a shit whether they've chased away an amateur hobbyist (which may, in fact, comprise the lion's share of league participants), I'm out. Enjoy your website. I no longer find this site enjoyable.

bbb · Jul 11, 2020

dquarasr said:
What is up with all the animus on this website?!?

I came here expecting to find like-minded individuals who enjoy the game. I expected sharing of ideas, techniques, general discussion about the game, and the like. What did I find? A TON of elitist comments and attitude. While there are many, many helpful contributors here, the overwhelming tone of this site is for the gambler, the pro, the hustler, and the arrogant with comments mostly exclusive, not inclusive.

I have taken one paid lesson nearly a year ago, and I won't name names - I went with a goal of working on fixing my mechanics; what I got for my one hour lesson was 10 minutes of an analysis of my stroke and stance, and 50 minutes of "standard" "do these standard draw and follow speed control drills" which did nothing to help my shot making.

Matt volunteered to help me. Scott Lee also had some conversations with me. Unfortunately, with COVID-19 furlough, I am not in a position to invest the not insignificant $$, while I"m sure they'd be worth it, for a lesson.

Scott volunteered to help me think about my game, what I do and why I do it, and I appreciate it. Matt took it a step further and offered a virtual video lesson, which we did this week. From both I gained valuable input.

What I cannot understand are the aggressive comments and the elitist tone of so many posts. So, and I'm SURE offenders don't really give a shit whether they've chased away an amateur hobbyist (which may, in fact, comprise the lion's share of league participants), I'm out. Enjoy your website. I no longer find this site enjoyable.

check your pm

How long a backstroke?

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