Can't get my stroke straight. AARf

Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
Hi all, I have been checking my errors with many hours of vid's, and the main reason im inconsistant, is because i can't deliver my cue in a straight line.

I played snooker for around 6 years, and used a tipical snooker position with 4 contact points with the cue. (chin, chest, bridge and grip)

Ive started playing pool 4 years ago, and i wanted to play pool and not snooker, so i watched many hours of players, and i changed my position. I am a bit higher (chin 2-5 inches above cue), i dont use my chest as a guide anymore and i use a closed bridge. I have been training my straight stroke for over a year now and its STILL not working.

I used the bottle drill, i used the lagshot with the measle ball to see if i put unintentional english, i used a self made cheap-mans-copy of the straight stroke trainer (board with 4 things sticking out where you place your cue in),
but its still not straight. When concentrating on it, i can deliver it perfectly straight, but as soon as i'm in a game, i lose it. Either i concentrate on the straight stroke, but i miss the shot-position, or I dont concentrate and im not stroking straight.

I'm always puting up 0.5/1 tip of english to the left side. My back arm swings outside at the end of my stroke. Ive thought it over, and it looks like (one ) of the problems is, that when my griphand is in finish position at the shoulder, and my stroke doesnt come to a natural rest there, but is forced to stop because my griphand can't go trough my shoulder, the backarm swings sideways to stop the movement. (i hope this is clear :s )

slow shots, griphand stops naturaly till the shoulder.
hard shots, griphand penduls till the shoulder, and once it at maximum closeness to the shoulder, the arm bends out untill the stroke is totally finished.

as the bottle drill, lagdrill with striped ball or measle ball, is always played at slow speed, so i dont have as much problems as where in a match i often need to play shots harder then a lagshot.

I have tried so many different grips, and even if some seem to be better then all, if the stroke aint straight, a good grip will also result in non center hits, so its harder to judge wich is best. I'm using a VERY lose grip at the moment, i don't close my griphand at the end of the stroke, but i leave it loose.

I'm getting very frustrated, because i master many advanced things, but I can't master a straight stroke. Its been 15 months now, and its still not there... im getting frustrated...

Sometimes i'm thinking of going back to my snooker stance, and use my chest to garantee !! that my cue will go straight, but I want to play pool like a poolplayer, and there are SO many pro's who dont use there chest and deliver it perfectly straight, i refuse to admit that a chest is needed as a guide.

:(

The weird thing is, on many video's the stroke looks perfect (grip, eye, cue, bridge in one perfect line, but i just know im not stroking straight.
 
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C

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
Solartje said:
Hi all, I have been checking my errors with many hours of vid's, and the main reason im inconsistant, is because i can't deliver my cue in a straight line.

I played snooker for around 6 years, and used a tipical snooker position with 4 contact points with the cue. (chin, chest, bridge and grip)

Ive started playing pool 4 years ago, and i wanted to play pool and not snooker, so i watched many hours of players, and i changed my position. I am a bit higher (chin 2-5 inches above cue), i dont use my chest as a guide anymore and i use a closed bridge. I have been training my straight stroke for over a year now and its STILL not working.

I used the bottle drill, i used the lagshot with the measle ball to see if i put unintentional english, i used a self made cheap-mans-copy of the straight stroke trainer (board with 4 things sticking out where you place your cue in),
but its still not straight. When concentrating on it, i can deliver it perfectly straight, but as soon as i'm in a game, i lose it. Either i concentrate on the straight stroke, but i miss the shot-position, or I dont concentrate and im not stroking straight.

I'm always puting up 0.5/1 tip of english to the left side. My back arm swings outside at the end of my stroke. Ive thought it over, and it looks like (one ) of the problems is, that when my griphand is in finish position at the shoulder, and my stroke doesnt come to a natural rest there, but is forced to stop because my griphand can't go trough my shoulder, the backarm swings sideways to stop the movement. (i hope this is clear :s )

slow shots, griphand stops naturaly till the shoulder.
hard shots, griphand penduls till the shoulder, and once it at maximum closeness to the shoulder, the arm bends out untill the stroke is totally finished.

as the bottle drill, lagdrill with striped ball or measle ball, is always played at slow speed, so i dont have as much problems as where in a match i often need to play shots harder then a lagshot.

I have tried so many different grips, and even if some seem to be better then all, if the stroke aint straight, a good grip will also result in non center hits, so its harder to judge wich is best. I'm using a VERY lose grip at the moment, i don't close my griphand at the end of the stroke, but i leave it loose.

I'm getting very frustrated, because i master many advanced things, but I can't master a straight stroke. Its been 15 months now, and its still not there... im getting frustrated...

Sometimes i'm thinking of going back to my snooker stance, and use my chest to garantee !! that my cue will go straight, but I want to play pool like a poolplayer, and there are SO many pro's who dont use there chest and deliver it perfectly straight, i refuse to admit that a chest is needed as a guide.

:(

The weird thing is, on many video's the stroke looks perfect (grip, eye, cue, bridge in one perfect line, but i just know im not stroking straight.
Click to expand...

Why not go back to snooker fundamentals? If your stroke is perfect when you play a certain way, why not play that way?

Mark Gray, Daryl Peach and Tony Drago seem to do alright.
 
Roger Long

Roger Long

Sonoran Cue Creations
Silver Member
If you can deliver your best and most consistent stroke while standing on one foot and shooting behind your back, then that is probably the way you should do it. I mean, who cares how you get there as long as you get there?

I do understand your dilemma, however, as I have struggled with the same problem myself. Photographs and videos have shown that my alignment mechanics are a little off; I have a slight angle to the "line-of-aim" in my back arm. As an instructor I have always wanted my mechanics to be picture perfect so my students couldn't say "Look, see, you're not doing it right, either!" But every time I get my mechanics to looking perfect, the stroke doesn't come through as straight. That means that while I'm coming through my stroke, my subconscious mind directs my hand and arm back along the old habitual path that years of practice have ingrained. And it will be a crooked path because the hand and arm didn't start out in the old habitual places. So, I have now gone back to concentrating on a straight stroke, rather than picture perfect mechanics. And I tell those critical students, "Try it the 'right' way first, and if it doesn't work for you, then find an ugly style that will." :)

Looks are not as important as results.

Roger
 
Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
thanks for the reply's.

Cameron. I don't know why... I wanted to learn something different i guess. I knew how to play snooker, but i didnt knew how to play pool.
i was bored of snooker, i wanted to play, like a poolplayer. Using there bridgehand, there stance, there techniques, there aiming techniques. I wanted to play pool on a pooltable, and not snooker on a pooltable. Ofcourse darren, tony and many more are world class, but I prefere a Charlie briant break, a buddy hall position and a earl's stroke, over a ronnie stroke, a hendry position etc... Going back to snooker fundamentels, would be the easy path and not why i started playing pool.

Neil: i think you understand it correct, and as i'm putting english i must be off before contact. You do have a point. SO it might not be the end of the stroke. But when i analyse video's, it really is only on the last part of the stroke.

Neil :) you are right when you say looks are not important. When i get beaten 6-0 by someone with a croocked stroke, trust me last thing i'm thinking about is his stroke :D But its more a mental choice, I want to learn to play like that. (i just got frustrated this weekend, that after a year and a half, the bad habit is back and im not cueing straight till the very last second.


i'll post some pictures taken from video's, and maybe post a short 3sec video where you see the chicken wing moving outwards.
 
Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
here the picture on how it looks before the stroke.

and a small animated give with whats going wrong. This is the problem exagerated, as i was using WARP speed to open the pack :), but it shows nicely what the problem is. When my griphand is coming closer and closer to the chest at the end of the strokes, it moves outwards, moving my tip inwards (to the left) I had this problem also during snooker, as my grip was hitting my chest on every stroke. I was hoping a higher stand would solve the problem, but it looks like my arm still does the outwards movement. I know what the problem is, but it just wont go away. thought that a year would be enough to remove this thing out of my stroke, but it isnt. I guess im doing the wrong exersises or not doing them correct or long enough.
43817500.gif


When my stroke is finished, my bridgehand usually is at around 15inch from the tip, so i think the folow trough is not the problem (even though it helps alot, but not enough)

Sometimes i really wonder how i can run a rack or two with this stroke O-o

PS (i just saw that im very low in this video :) i was probably trying to mix snooker and pool fundamentels up and see what the result would be)
 

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D

Dead Crab

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, I'm not qualified to instruct, but I recently diagnosed myself with a major chicken wing problem, and here are my thoughts:

1. I have looked at many pictures of top players, and they all have their elbow either in the vertical plane thru the cue, or on the body side of this plane. I checked my stroke in the mirror and had a pronounced chicken wing to the outside of the vertical cue plane (worse than yours is).

2. I initially attempted to cure this by concentrating on pulling my elbow in. This did help somewhat, but mostly made me sore, and degraded the longer I played.

3. The root cause was my grip, not my elbow. Here is how I learned to get my elbow in-line with the cue:
Set up in front of a mirror, or head-on into a video camera.
With your back hand, place your thumb along the top surface of the cue's long axis (pointing down the cue) and grip the cue firmly, keeping your wrist straight as you squeeze the cue. Watch what happens to your elbow. If you are like me, this firm and straightly aligned gripping of the cue pulls the elbow right in-line with the cue.
Obviously you don't want a death grip on the cue when you shoot, so once you have your elbow "set" by this firm grip, let your grip thumb fall to the side, and relax your hand a bit while taking care to leave your elbow and wrist in the same position. I have found that once I "set" my elbow like this, it tends to stay put.

This helped me a lot with elbow position. It may or may not help you. In any case, it is possible that your chicken wing is really a grip problem.
 
F

Foster62

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
stroke

You just told my story for the past year. Every time I think I have solved the problem it comes back like a bad dream and I change something else and so on so on.... About two weeks ago I called my uncle that I have a strained relation with, but he did teach my to play.So I called him and told him my problem, it was either that or quit playing again. He told me that most good players have there thumb pointed down when they shoot, mine was not, the way to point the thumb down is to raise the shoulder, not roll the wrist. This brings the shoulder into line with the shot. So far it has been
working like a charm. Now my stroke even feels strait.

Good luck
 
J

Jason Robichaud

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It looks like your back hand is a foot or so from you hip. Your feet look to be square to shot like snooker but you body is leaning to the right of your feet (looking down your shaft at shot). So, feet pointing on line and shoulders pointing at 3 oclock... try 1 oclock if that makes sense. I think if you square your shoulders to the shot, move body to left, this will move that hand closer to hip and along that natural path it is trying to take. It wants to travel along the body. I think it is a body alignment issue! Have and views from the back to confirm?

Your head should be between your feet or , at most, over right leg not past.
 
G

Gerald

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For an ex snooker player you seem to drop your elbow quite a bit. Scott Lee and Randy G, who both post here frequently and are BCA qualified instructors, have an excellent set of 2 DVD's that teach the fundamentals of a straight and repeatable stroke along with some great kicking fundamentals. There is nothing wrong in using a snooker stance if it seems to give you more comfort and better alignment.
 
Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
Gerald said:
For an ex snooker player you seem to drop your elbow quite a bit. Scott Lee and Randy G, who both post here frequently and are BCA qualified instructors, have an excellent set of 2 DVD's that teach the fundamentals of a straight and repeatable stroke along with some great kicking fundamentals. There is nothing wrong in using a snooker stance if it seems to give you more comfort and better alignment.
Click to expand...

Yes, i never did it in snooker, but it helps me on certain shots in pool (topspin) or when I play a shot hard so it wont bang me in the chest/shoulder


Dead crab, neil, foster, jason:

MANY thanks for the tips. I was hoping to get some concrete things I can try, and all gave me something to check out.
Its 00:21 am, so you might have to wait till friday before i can give some feedback on the tips, but I can't wait to hit the blue again. :
Im glad i'm on AZB :) this is the reason why.


Edit: i tried some strokes on the table, and you guys are greath. The main sorce of the problem came from the shoulder tightening right before the shot. I didnt had this thing in snooker, as the lighter balls didnt need that much power and its something that creaped in.
The tip with the tumb up the cue feels weird in the beginning, but i can understand how you can controle a role or sidemovement with this. Greath tips.

At first i asked myself: WHY did I put up this video , but now im thinking: why didnt i post this before !!!! took me a year with almost no results, and it could be solved in a matter of weeks thanks to your posts.
 
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SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
It's your upper-arm. Have someone hold your upper-arm (above your elbow) when you stroke. A good move is to have them wrap a belt around it and hold it up and shoot a bunch of shots. When your upper-arm is on a plane and doesn't twist, it's shocking to see how straight you stroke.

I've been working on this myself as I have a similar problem, although my movement is nowhere near as bad as yours.

I have to give credit to Tom Simpson for that move... it's quite ingenious, I think.
 
Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
im going to do some mare video taping this weekend, from other directions, different pot speed, and see if i can find more clue's. might mix them together, play then in slow motion and post them on youtube, so you can get a better vision of the problem.

Spiderwebbcom:
this stroke was horrible. I didt look for the worst stroke i could find though :eek:. I asure your, usually its not that bad and i can run a rack or two without problem, but when i DO miss, it is because of this problem.

I remember the Oyster using some kind of device that was fixed to the ceiling above his pooltable. That is probably the same thing with your idea.

At the moment i feel that my griphand and my shoulder tightening before the shot are the main cause, but i will try out EVERY single advice that has been given :)

Ps I once had a friend who told me, he locked his shoulder in place to prevent side movement. Have you heared of it, and how do you lock a shoulder in place when its in a straight line? I feel if i tighten up the arm, it automaticaly moves into a straight line, but how do i luck it up?
 
P

PetToilet

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
very interesting, i have had similar problems (shoulder twist on power shots and wrist twisting when tense). I am a bit confused with the thumb thing you guys are saying. Someone said to point it down the cue (on top of the cue down the shot line?) and someone said to point it down.

My stroke is always fixed when I mentally remind myself to grip very lightly and open my grip hand on the back stroke, which makes me not twist my wrist when I stroke more firm. I want to try the thumb thing too. I tighten my shoulder to prevent the chicken wing flap but it does tire me out more and hopefully I can learn to not do it without tightening.

With my break shot, I would always fail to hit it square but I would be trying to knock someone out. I took power off my break, and now I hit it dead square and get 500% more action because of it.

I have noticed that good players seem to have the reverse chicken wing if anything, with elbow drop. I have tried to drop my elbow straight down instead of rotating the shoulder but it feels very odd.
 
Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
I did like 100 strokes, and analysed them all frame by frame. Sometimes i my arm doesnt move at all (rarely, only on very slow played shots), sometimes my upperarm moves left to right to left to right, but it seems more from the tip/cb impact and the cue rebouncing of the cb.

On the first video i posted some post ago, i the ouside chicken wing at the end, is purely from my griphand hitting my chest and rebouncing outwards, thats what made the first video SO much worse, then every other stroke i taped. It was mainly because of the exagerated power (to increase my errors) my grip rebouncing from my chest. The first initial inside chicken wing is my problem, and ive tried to capture it as good as i could.

result:

On the stroke in this video, it is neither of cuerebound or the grip rebounding from the chest. Its a arm-crumble move right at the begining of the endstroke, with a griptwist as the actore directing the other moves (?) This is the main problem that i want to solve. I do use a very light grip (tumb, index and middle), but its not prefenting the weird movement i do.

I hope this video will make it cleared what my problem is, and easyer to find a solution

azb3.gif



In this video, im not doing it... no idea why.
azb6bis.gif



Regarding the tips: When im down on the shot, and tighten my shouldermuscle like it has been asked, my upperarm moves inwards like on the video, so i guess
this is what im doing wrong. Is there a good trick to not tighten this muscle?
 
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