Pulled or Pushed

One Pocket John · Sep 30, 2012

Is the cue stick pulled thru the stroke or pushed thru the stroke?

My instructor asked me once, long ago, "is it easier to push the cue or to pull the cue forward". Tough question.

In my mind if I am going to force something forward, like a cue ball, I would want to push the stick rather tha pull the stick forward. But pushing involves muscles to tense which can be a problem.

Had to ask. :smile:

John

ENGLISH! · Sep 30, 2012

Push Me Pull Me

John,

I am NOT an instructor but to me it is neither.

To me, it is more like you're putting a beverage glass down on a table & at the last second you realize that there is still beverage in it so you bring it back up to your mouth, or it's like holding a hammer upside down and hammering a nail into the bottom side of a table, or it's like tossing a horse shoe but with the shoe & hand turned side ways. All of these motions are similar to me & even more so if you hold the item in a similiar fashion to how one 'holds' the cue.

To me, it is not a push or a pull.

Just some thoughts of how it feels to me.
Rick

One Pocket John · Sep 30, 2012

Thanks English.I aways read your posts.

John

3kushn · Oct 1, 2012

John, Harry was talking about cue balance point. Forward vs Rearward. If the cue is butt heavy as in a carom cue he viewed it as pulling the weight through. If forward balanced you're pushing the weight. Really had nothing to do with the stroke per say.

FranCrimi · Oct 1, 2012

One Pocket John said:
Is the cue stick pulled thru the stroke or pushed thru the stroke?

My instructor asked me once, long ago, "is it easier to push the cue or to pull the cue forward". Tough question.

In my mind if I am going to force something forward, like a cue ball, I would want to push the stick rather tha pull the stick forward. But pushing involves muscles to tense which can be a problem.

Had to ask. :smile:

John

I think you can do either, depending on the shot and what you want to accomplish.

chefjeff · Oct 1, 2012

The only time I notice trouble stroking is when my triceps muscles are twitching.

So pulling BACK on the cue makes pulling iit forward a little less controllable, if that makes sense.

Jeff Livingston

KRJ · Oct 1, 2012

chefjeff said:
The only time I notice trouble stroking is when my triceps muscles are twitching.

So pulling BACK on the cue makes pulling iit forward a little less controllable, if that makes sense.

Jeff Livingston

Yep... and thus why a "pause" is a good thing. Your tricep pulls the cue back, and the pause allows your tricep to get "off" the shot, and only your bicep is pushing the cue forward. Less twtiching as they say.

Similar to lifting weights, one muscle or group of muscles brings the weight up, and another down. Each time "pausing" between the up and down motion..

Kinda weird seeing folks outside of NPR... they just look different

BilliardsAbout · Oct 1, 2012

Can be pushed, pulled, tossed, or thrown from the hand or lower arm--that goes for backswings and foward strokes--lots of possibilities.

*The "pull" can be a tough concept because it's not like tugging on a rope or pulling on shopping cart with plantar or dorsal flexion. Radial or ulnar wrist flexion or neutral wrists...

*When you're playing beautifully, you're not conscious of the motion and which method you're using...

chefjeff · Oct 1, 2012

ChicagoRJ said:
Yep... and thus why a "pause" is a good thing. Your tricep pulls the cue back, and the pause allows your tricep to get "off" the shot, and only your bicep is pushing the cue forward. Less twtiching as they say.

Similar to lifting weights, one muscle or group of muscles brings the weight up, and another down. Each time "pausing" between the up and down motion..

Kinda weird seeing folks outside of NPR... they just look different

I come here more than most NPRers.

I have essential tremor so when I pause I shake sometimes. The older I get, the worse it is. I've been working on pausing, or not, re the tremor. Not sure which way works best, other than to just continue on with the stroke no matter what happens. Once committed to the shot, I don't want to stop for anything. Sometimes that is a good thing, sometimes, not.

What helps best for me is to lift weights so my triceps are stronger
so even if I pause and shake there's enough working muscle to overcome that problem.

Now, if I could just stay with my lifting routine.

Jeff Livingston

ENGLISH! · Oct 1, 2012

3kushn said:
John, Harry was talking about cue balance point. Forward vs Rearward. If the cue is butt heavy as in a carom cue he viewed it as pulling the weight through. If forward balanced you're pushing the weight. Really had nothing to do with the stroke per say.

I'm confused. Who has a cue where the balance point is ever behind the back hand? If so, by that qualifier one would be 'pulling' the mass. But the cue balance point is between the bridge & the back hand, so again by the qualifier, one would always be 'pushing' the mass.

I personally do not relate the stroke to either a push or a pull as that movement of the arm & hand in that radial position is not how one would pull or push a mass.

Just my $0.02 & I am NOT an instructor.

RJ aka Rick

3kushn · Oct 1, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
I'm confused. Who has a cue where the balance point is ever behind the back hand? If so, by that qualifier one would be 'pulling' the mass. But the cue balance point is between the bridge & the back hand, so again by the qualifier, one would always be 'pushing' the mass.

I personally do not relate the stroke to either a push or a pull as that movement of the arm & hand in that radial position is not how one would pull or push a mass.

Just my $0.02 & I am NOT an instructor.

RJ aka Rick

It was just a concept that doesn't in any way try to answer anything what so ever about the stroke.

Like I said before it is one component in choosing a cue based on balance point and IN VERY GENERAL TERMS what game the cue will be best suited. It was his feeling that with butt heavy cues you can generate more power and a big reason carom cues are usually butt heavy. An average 3 Cushion shot we're sending a heavier ball much further distances than average pool shots. Multiple times further.

The person John is talking about I played nearly daily for over 15 years. Just wanted to clarify the statement from an old friend. It was his feeling and nothing else needs elaboration.

bbb · Oct 1, 2012

on the back swing
arent you pulling the part of the cue if front of your hand and pushing the part behind your hand???
on the foward swing
arent you pushing the part of the cue in front of your hand and pulling the part of the cue behind your hand????

3kushn · Oct 1, 2012

bbb said:
on the back swing
arent you pulling the part of the cue if front of your hand and pushing the part behind your hand???
on the foward swing
arent you pushing the part of the cue in front of your hand and pulling the part of the cue behind your hand????

Thats closer to the thought.

BilliardsAbout · Oct 1, 2012

bbb said:
on the back swing
arent you pulling the part of the cue if front of your hand and pushing the part behind your hand???
on the foward swing
arent you pushing the part of the cue in front of your hand and pulling the part of the cue behind your hand????

Which hand? Just kidding.

Put your hand over your heart like you're pledging allegiance. With a relaxed wrist, brush your hand up and down your chest and torso. Or do an old school Avengers or James bond karate chop but with a loose wrist.

You can have this type of ulnar or radial deviation in the wrist (or no break at all) on the backstroke and/or forward stroke. It can feel like pushing, pulling or tossing the cue stick. You can even let go of the cue stick on a practice stroke, the final backstroke or even the final stroke forward and catch it again. That's a toss!

The feel of what you're doing with your hand and mind, not the feeling of the cue stick itself in front of or behind the stroke hand is what I'm referring to.

ENGLISH! · Oct 1, 2012

3kushn said:
It was just a concept that doesn't in any way try to answer anything what so ever about the stroke.

Like I said before it is one component in choosing a cue based on balance point and IN VERY GENERAL TERMS what game the cue will be best suited. It was his feeling that with butt heavy cues you can generate more power and a big reason carom cues are usually butt heavy. An average 3 Cushion shot we're sending a heavier ball much further distances than average pool shots. Multiple times further.

The person John is talking about I played nearly daily for over 15 years. Just wanted to clarify the statement from an old friend. It was his feeling and nothing else needs elaboration.

Thanks.

I was confused. It makes much more sense now.
Sorry if I came off badly. Confusion can do that at times.

Thanks again.
RJ

ENGLISH! · Oct 1, 2012

BilliardsAbout said:
Which hand? Just kidding.

Put your hand over your heart like you're pledging allegiance. With a relaxed wrist, brush your hand up and down your chest and torso. Or do an old school Avengers or James bond karate chop but with a loose wrist.

You can have this type of ulnar or radial deviation in the wrist (or no break at all) on the backstroke and/or forward stroke. It can feel like pushing, pulling or tossing the cue stick. You can even let go of the cue stick on a practice stroke, the final backstroke or even the final stroke forward and catch it again. That's a toss!

The feel of what you're doing with your hand and mind, not the feeling of the cue stick itself in front of or behind the stroke hand is what I'm referring to.

Mr. Sherman,

I like the pledge of allegiance brush. I was going to use a brush or comb your hair front to back but used something else instead. Your lower arm position is a better association.

Regards,
RJ aka Rick

FranCrimi · Oct 1, 2012

The original question posed was about the forward motion of the stroke, not the backward motion.

randyg · Oct 1, 2012

Just a thought.....

The cue stick is attached to our body with the help of our hand.
Muscles in our body always pull, they never push.

The Triceps pull the arm back and the Biceps pull our arm forward.

The cue stick is being pulled forward, the cue ball is being pushed forward.

As I said, just a thought.

randyg

BilliardsAbout · Oct 1, 2012

FranCrimi said:
The original question posed was about the forward motion of the stroke, not the backward motion.

I apologize. I interpreted "Is the cue stick pulled thru the stroke or pushed thru the stroke?" as stroking and not "the final forward stroke". Not trying to hijack the thread.

BilliardsAbout · Oct 1, 2012

randyg said:
Just a thought.....

The cue stick is attached to our body with the help of our hand.
Muscles in our body always pull, they never push.

The Triceps pull the arm back and the Biceps pull our arm forward.

The cue stick is being pulled forward, the cue ball is being pushed forward.

As I said, just a thought.

randyg

That's right on, Mr. G.

Someone can stroke incredibly well just by working biceps/triceps. Some people feel like their pulling the cue from a dead stop with their hand back and then through, as you know.

That would be a good thread, "How do you start the cue stick back from the checkoff point?" ...As well as a good question to ask my opponent when he's on the hill against me, heh-heh-heh...

Pulled or Pushed

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