Hand touching chest on draw shots

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hand touching chest on draw shots (videos added pg.8)

Sometimes when I`m executing a power draw shot, i find that my right hand (the one i hold the cue with) touches my chest at the end of the stroke.
Am i simply not gripping the cue far enough back or is this indicative of something else, like twisting the wrist or any other problems?
I work on my stroke and particulary my draw shot quite a bit, but when I`m shooting harder than medium speed this happens way too often.
 
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Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you're playing with a pendulum stroke (and where you hold on to your cue, your grip hand falls directly under your elbow, when your tip is on the CB) your grip hand is supposed to come to rest against your chest, right near your pec. Completely normal, and imo, happens on almost every shot. It's part of how you measure your personal shooting template. jmo

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
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boyersj

Indiana VNEA State Champ
Silver Member
What part of your chest? Further than usual it sounds, and if so it is probably shoulder drop. Posting video can help quite a bit but there is a self check that you can do.... pay particular attention to the direction your cue is pointing. If the ferrule is pointing upwards it will help confirm shoulder drop. Another pretty common issue particularly with hard shots is a tight grip.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sometimes when I`m executing a power draw shot, i find that my right hand (the one i hold the cue with) touches my chest at the end of the stroke.
Am i simply not gripping the cue far enough back or is this indicative of something else, like twisting the wrist or any other problems?
I work on my stroke and particulary my draw shot quite a bit, but when I`m shooting harder than medium speed this happens way too often.

Could be an alignment issue. Can you post a link to a video of yourself shooting?
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks guys, good to hear that I`m not alone with this, my hand usually seem to hit the side of my chest/upper ribs.
I know i tend to grip tighter when i need a power shot, but I`m working on my grip and I`m seeing progress, It`s just not in my muscle memory yet..
I try to be avare of my arm being 90 degree angle when the tip is touching the cueball, but again i have to focus, it does not come naturally...
I`ll try to post a video, it`s so much easier to see what I`m doing wrong.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I shoot with a very low head position, not with the cue on my chin, but still very low, looking 'straight' down the shaft & my hand never touches my chest or shoulder.

If the cue is moving straight into & through the ball, how can the hand hit the chest or shoulder? It can only do that if the cue is not moving in a straight line. If the hand comes up to the chest or shoulder then the tip is arcing downward. That is not necessarily bad for a draw shot but not so good for hitting high on the cue ball & not so good for hitting the cue ball precisely for any shot. At least not IMHO.

That being said, if one is using a 'pendulum' stroke then the hand coming up would be associated with that method. Personally I want my cue moving straight.

All of the above are just my humble opinions.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Kim Bye...Just FYI, it's a myth that the grip HAS to significantly tighten for a power shot...let the cue do the work, instead of "driving" it through the CB with muscle. Also, you can put a rubber band on your cue, behind or in front of where your grip hand should be at ball address (tip on CB). That will help the 'memory' thing.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks guys, good to hear that I`m not alone with this, my hand usually seem to hit the side of my chest/upper ribs.
I know i tend to grip tighter when i need a power shot, but I`m working on my grip and I`m seeing progress, It`s just not in my muscle memory yet..
I try to be avare of my arm being 90 degree angle when the tip is touching the cueball, but again i have to focus, it does not come naturally...
I`ll try to post a video, it`s so much easier to see what I`m doing wrong.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's helpful to create a bridge between other things you do to your pool grip

Thanks guys, good to hear that I`m not alone with this, my hand usually seem to hit the side of my chest/upper ribs.
I know i tend to grip tighter when i need a power shot, but I`m working on my grip and I`m seeing progress, It`s just not in my muscle memory yet..
I try to be avare of my arm being 90 degree angle when the tip is touching the cueball, but again i have to focus, it does not come naturally...
I`ll try to post a video, it`s so much easier to see what I`m doing wrong.

Do you play any other sports or games? It's helpful to create a bridge between other things you do to your pool grip. The hammer is a great teaching tool, as well as casting a rod and reel in fishing (my development was influenced by golf and tennis) .....the motion of the wrist is sometimes misunderstood, it actually releases slightly at impact. I recommend controlling the cue with a grip that retains this control through impact.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
Kim Bye...Just FYI, it's a myth that the grip HAS to significantly tighten for a power shot...let the cue do the work, instead of "driving" it through the CB with muscle. Also, you can put a rubber band on your cue, behind or in front of where your grip hand should be at ball address (tip on CB). That will help the 'memory' thing.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I've had a lot of success recently with this actually. Though instead of a rubber band, I have a piece of electrical tape on the side of the cue where my thumb would be. I also have a small pencil mark on the shaft where my bridge hand should be on a normal shot. It's a great diagnostic check at the beginning of a practice session, or warming up before a game.

I noticed some of the snooker players at the World U21 Championships doing this. And Stuart Pettman at the Derby City had a visible black mark on his shaft, which I suspect might have been for this purpose.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the cue is moving straight into & through the ball, how can the hand hit the chest or shoulder? It can only do that if the cue is not moving in a straight line. If the hand comes up to the chest or shoulder then the tip is arcing downward. That is not necessarily bad for a draw shot but not so good for hitting high on the cue ball & not so good for hitting the cue ball precisely for any shot. At least not IMHO.
Rick

My hand hits my chest, and I have a level stroke. This is because when the hand hits the chest, the wrist naturally "breaks"

By "breaks" I mean it bends back towards the pinky. It's the same technique a lot of elbow droppers use, and it will cause the cue to stay level.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
My hand hits my chest, and I have a level stroke. This is because when the hand hits the chest, the wrist naturally "breaks"

By "breaks" I mean it bends back towards the pinky. It's the same technique a lot of elbow droppers use, and it will cause the cue to stay level.

Jon,

I understand the wrist movement to which you refer. I still have a hard time picturing a 'level' or straight line traveling cue stick movement with the hand hitting one's chest.

Is your cue riding along your chest for the whole stroke? If I remember correctly your arm was angled in toward your body & not hanging straight down. It may be swinging into your chest on a plane other than perpendicular to the table or your upper body may be turned to the right or both. I think restricted was Fran Crimi's word for it.

If the arm comes up with a firm grip & locked wrist the tip would move up above one's head. But if the cue shaft is held down on the bridge hand as the stroke hand comes up, the tip pivots down on the bridge hand unless one's anatomy keeps it from doing so.

I don't see how the wrist action to which you refer can prevent that from happening by itself alone. Perhaps you are dropping your elbow & extending your forearm.

The thing is that if ones chest is higher than the shaft line & the hand comes up to the chest then the connection to the cue brings the cue with it. The wrist action can negate a bit of that but I would bet that the cue stick is not moving straight as that happens unless as I said another part of your anatomy is helping to negate it as well.

Bob Jewitt's comparison of a pendulum & piston stroke clearly shows that the tip moves opposite of the stroke hand for a pendulum stroke. Hand up tip down, hand down tip up, & then hand up on the finish & the tip goes down.

If one were to let the cue sit in the hand & let it 'roll' across the different parts of the hand with no wrist action the tip movements would be accentuated. Allowing the hand to hinge forward on the back stroke & then backward on the forward stroke would take some of that tip movement out of the stroke. But IMHO it would not be enough alone to keep the cue moving straight for any length of stroke other than the smallest in nature.

I certainly am not looking to argue with you, especially about your stroke, but this goes to the point of my thread looking for a bio-mechanical explanation for the claim of a straight line sweet spot in a true pendulum stroke. If one's hand is coming up to one's chest that is a 'pendulum' type finish.

Sorry for the long post but this is an important point as to what type of stroke lends itself to a more straight line cue & tip travel for the sake of precision.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jon,

I understand the wrist movement to which you refer. I still have a hard time picturing a 'level' or straight line traveling cue stick movement with the hand hitting one's chest.

Is your cue riding along your chest for the whole stroke? If I remember correctly your arm was angled in toward your body & not hanging straight down. It may be swinging into your chest on a plane other than perpendicular to the table or your upper body may be turned to the right or both. I think restricted was Fran Crimi's word for it.

If the arm comes up with a firm grip & locked wrist the tip would move up above one's head. But if the cue shaft is held down on the bridge hand as the stroke hand comes up, the tip pivots down on the bridge hand unless one's anatomy keeps it from doing so.

I don't see how the wrist action to which you refer can prevent that from happening by itself alone. Perhaps you are dropping your elbow & extending your forearm.

The thing is that if ones chest is higher than the shaft line & the hand comes up to the chest then the connection to the cue brings the cue with it. The wrist action can negate a bit of that but I would bet that the cue stick is not moving straight as that happens unless as I said another part of your anatomy is helping to negate it as well.

Bob Jewitt's comparison of a pendulum & piston stroke clearly shows that the tip moves opposite of the stroke hand for a pendulum stroke. Hand up tip down, hand down tip up, & then hand up on the finish & the tip goes down.

If one were to let the cue sit in the hand & let it 'roll' across the different parts of the hand with no wrist action the tip movements would be accentuated. Allowing the hand to hinge forward on the back stroke & then backward on the forward stroke would take some of that tip movement out of the stroke. But IMHO it would not be enough alone to keep the cue moving straight for any length of stroke other than the smallest in nature.

I certainly am not looking to argue with you, especially about your stroke, but this goes to the point of my thread looking for a bio-mechanical explanation for the claim of a straight line sweet spot in a true pendulum stroke. If one's hand is coming up to one's chest that is a 'pendulum' type finish.

Sorry for the long post but this is an important point as to what type of stroke lends itself to a more straight line cue & tip travel for the sake of precision.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

Try not to think of what I'm saying in terms of pendulum vs. piston.

I actually did take Fran's advice and changed my alignment to allow a bit more freedom in my stroking arm. It wasn't until recently that I tweaked my alignment some more and found my grip end finishing at the chest. Like I said, that hit against the chest bends the wrist backwards and causes the cue to stay level.

I don't know if he always drops his elbow, but watch the bend in his wrist on the follow through. The only difference between me and him is the upper body alignment. His is completely out of the way that allows an elbow drop, where as my upper body alignment allows my grip hand to stop at the chest. In either case, both utilize the wrist break to keep the cue level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue6wFDwl41g

With all of that being said, there are plenty of pros that don't drop their elbow except on select shots. On the ones where they don't, the hand does not hit the chest and the wrist doesn't move. Personal preference and consistency are the name of the game.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Try not to think of what I'm saying in terms of pendulum vs. piston.

I actually did take Fran's advice and changed my alignment to allow a bit more freedom in my stroking arm. It wasn't until recently that I tweaked my alignment some more and found my grip end finishing at the chest. Like I said, that hit against the chest bends the wrist backwards and causes the cue to stay level.

I don't know if he always drops his elbow, but watch the bend in his wrist on the follow through. The only difference between me and him is the upper body alignment. His is completely out of the way that allows an elbow drop, where as my upper body alignment allows my grip hand to stop at the chest. In either case, both utilize the wrist break to keep the cue level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue6wFDwl41g

With all of that being said, there are plenty of pros that don't drop their elbow except on select shots. On the ones where they don't, the hand does not hit the chest and the wrist doesn't move. Personal preference and consistency are the name of the game.

Jon,

A few things are rather obvious in that video.

One is that his cue is not that 'level' in that video. Maybe because he was looking into the camera so often. But that is not the point. We are not really talking about 'level' but straight line travel.

Two, on the back stroke, his hand swings up (like a 'pendulum') & the cue changes it's angle some. The butt went up & the tip went down.

Three, when he delivers it, his hand comes down & the tip back up & then he extends through & his hand travels 'straight' forward & does not come up to his chest & he has a rather pronounced elbow drop for the size of that stroke along with the wrist action.

If I had to classify that stroke, I would say it is a pendulum back stroke & a piston type forward delivery or what I believe some call a piston J stroke.

If you are doing that same wrist action but with no elbow drop, & your hand is hitting your chest, how is the cue traveling straight? Even if your upper body is angled more across the line, your chest would still be higher than the line of the cue unless it is riding along your chest the whole time.

My eyes, head & chest are much lower that Tony's & my hand never hits my chest.

If the cue is not riding on the chest as a snooker player's cue rides on their chin & then the hand & the cue in it are on your chest in the finish, I can not see how the angle of the cue would not change for that to happen.

I'm open to an explanation because I just can't picture it.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Try not to think of what I'm saying in terms of pendulum vs. piston.

I actually did take Fran's advice and changed my alignment to allow a bit more freedom in my stroking arm. It wasn't until recently that I tweaked my alignment some more and found my grip end finishing at the chest. Like I said, that hit against the chest bends the wrist backwards and causes the cue to stay level.

I don't know if he always drops his elbow, but watch the bend in his wrist on the follow through. The only difference between me and him is the upper body alignment. His is completely out of the way that allows an elbow drop, where as my upper body alignment allows my grip hand to stop at the chest. In either case, both utilize the wrist break to keep the cue level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue6wFDwl41g

With all of that being said, there are plenty of pros that don't drop their elbow except on select shots. On the ones where they don't, the hand does not hit the chest and the wrist doesn't move. Personal preference and consistency are the name of the game.

Regarding the highlighted sentence above: I don't think you're right about that.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Regarding the highlighted sentence above: I don't think you're right about that.

Maybe not. However, my hand can hit my chest with center, draw, follow, sidespin at any speed. I might not always make the shot, but the CB will do what it's supposed to do.

I just assumed that's because the cue is level through contact.

Are you saying the cue isn't actually level, or is there something at work here that I'm not aware of yet that's causing it to stay level?
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
heres a theory that maybe the experts could comment on since im no expert
i think hitting your chest has to do with a combination of how much you bend your forearm toward your upper arm and how far forward
your hand goes (with your forearm bent towards your upper arm as the elbow drops the hand moves forward towards the chest)
i think he chest is the natural wall that everyone will run into
if you bend your arm enough and/or follow thru long enough
i also dont think thats necessarily a bad thing
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
i think the piston j stroke would end at the chest (from the combo of forearm bend and hand going forward)just as a pendulum stroke would (due to complete bend of forearm)
jmho
icbw
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Sometimes when I`m executing a power draw shot, i find that my right hand (the one i hold the cue with) touches my chest at the end of the stroke.
Am i simply not gripping the cue far enough back or is this indicative of something else, like twisting the wrist or any other problems?
I work on my stroke and particulary my draw shot quite a bit, but when I`m shooting harder than medium speed this happens way too often.

my theory would suggest if your allignment isnt getting in the way as fran suggested is you are having a longer follow thru on your "power draw shot" and your hand is finding "home base" or the natural wall your chest/pec
 
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