Pay for Play

Black-Balled

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Are any athletes compensated 'fairly'? Depends on whom ya ask...will pool pay fairly, when pros are earning a living wage?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-a-lot-of-work-for-a-relatively-small-prize/
n a list of the top-10 richest sporting events in the world – compiled by Amitesh Jasrotia for BookJelly.com – the Tour's (tour de France) prize list doesn't even enter as a rounding error.

, the Tour de France prize purse is €2,245,800 [$2,505,493], split among the general classification riders, points and mountains classification winners, best young rider, daily stage winners and jersey wearers, and the various intermediate sprints and KOMs along the way. Each rider in the Tour – GC places 20-160 – also gets €1,000 [$1,115.70] for their troubles. That total prize purse is a relatively small amount of money when it's spread between riders, staff and others who get a slice of the pie.
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Some overpaid, some underpaid

Take the NFL for example. Average career about two years. Those on the low end of the scale paid less than three hundred thousand a year last I knew. That is the payoff for living football every waking hour for years. Most will hurt for the rest of their lives from the injuries. Uncle Sam and agents got a good chunk of that money so they may have $100,000 net in the unlikely event that they lived frugally as a young football player that thought it would never end! There is a man with a very old dilapidated hidden away gas station in New Orleans. Nothing unusual about the old black man with an unnoticed old gas station except that he has a superbowl ring on his finger.

The stars are overpaid, the men that make them stars are often underpaid, but on the whole I suspect the NFL players are paid what they are worth. Here is one that will cause a stink here, pool players are paid what they are worth too, indeed overpaid!

The NFL players are worth billions a year to other entities. Pool players aren't worth what they are paid to other entities. Almost every half decent purse in the US is more a gift to the players than a practical business move. john schmidt may have just ran over 600 balls, Wheaties isn't beating down his door to appear on a cereal box. If every person in the US was made aware of the 600 tomorrow, all but the tiniest fraction of one percent would say "oh that's nice" and forget about it two minutes later.

When pool can fill a stadium or put twenty million viewers in front of a TV, then pool and pool players will have a value. Until then, no. Just the sponsorship money from one NASCAR team would fund all of pool, over ten million a year. Win, lose, or draw, millions of people see a 200mph billboard out there and getting TV time every week. A crash may be bad for the team but it is great for the sponsor.

Pool has nothing to offer outside entities and there isn't enough money inside pool to make it viable for more than a handful of players in the US. After expenses, doubtful any unsponsored player wouldn't be better off financially flipping burgers when any five year block of time is looked at.

Hu
 
Maniac

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
ShootingArts said:
Take the NFL for example. Average career about two years. Those on the low end of the scale paid less than three hundred thousand a year last I knew. That is the payoff for living football every waking hour for years. Most will hurt for the rest of their lives from the injuries. Uncle Sam and agents got a good chunk of that money so they may have $100,000 net in the unlikely event that they lived frugally as a young football player that thought it would never end! There is a man with a very old dilapidated hidden away gas station in New Orleans. Nothing unusual about the old black man with an unnoticed old gas station except that he has a superbowl ring on his finger.

The stars are overpaid, the men that make them stars are often underpaid, but on the whole I suspect the NFL players are paid what they are worth. Here is one that will cause a stink here, pool players are paid what they are worth too, indeed overpaid!

The NFL players are worth billions a year to other entities. Pool players aren't worth what they are paid to other entities. Almost every half decent purse in the US is more a gift to the players than a practical business move. john schmidt may have just ran over 600 balls, Wheaties isn't beating down his door to appear on a cereal box. If every person in the US was made aware of the 600 tomorrow, all but the tiniest fraction of one percent would say "oh that's nice" and forget about it two minutes later.

When pool can fill a stadium or put twenty million viewers in front of a TV, then pool and pool players will have a value. Until then, no. Just the sponsorship money from one NASCAR team would fund all of pool, over ten million a year. Win, lose, or draw, millions of people see a 200mph billboard out there and getting TV time every week. A crash may be bad for the team but it is great for the sponsor.

Pool has nothing to offer outside entities and there isn't enough money inside pool to make it viable for more than a handful of players in the US. After expenses, doubtful any unsponsored player wouldn't be better off financially flipping burgers when any five year block of time is looked at.

Hu
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Very intelligent post, Hu.....although many that post here will not see it your way.

I am not one of those people.

I would elaborate but there is nothing I could add that your post didn't say..

Maniac
 
sjm

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Athletes that play baseball, football, basketball, and hockey are employees of their respective teams.

Pool players are not employees of a pro pool organization. They choose to invest in themselves. Employees of a business enterprise are ensured a minimum wage, but investors are not guaranteed a profit. Like anybody who invests in anything, the investment a player makes in him/herself may prove profitable or not, but the range of probable earnings or losses is easily gauged prior to entry in the pro pool investment.

The realities of what's available in prize money were described extremely well by Shooting Arts. Pool produces little revenue for those that produce tournaments or the sponsors, and this greatly limits how much can be paid out.

A few are lucky enough to sign contracts for substantial compensation with sponsors, and they, and only they, have significant recurring income from competing at pool. Pool players that invest in competing alone have it very tough, but others either own pool rooms, run pool related businesses, or teach pool, and their income is a little more certain.

The concept of fair compensation is irrelevant to pool. When one invests, one is never sure of an income, which is why one must study the likely results prior to investing. Few profit much from investing in themselves as pro players.
 
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logical

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
Fair? Fair is whatever someone is willing and able to pay someone. How much that is depends on the value/revenue that can be generated.

Burger flippers are paid based on the operating costs, profit margins and sales of fast food restaurants. Pro football players are paid based on the money that is made through getting advertisers and fans to pay to advertise or watch top level athletes...or buy their jerseys, etc. If a given player draws more paying fans, gets them to the playoffs, sells more jerseys and allows them to draw higher broadcast license fees he is not overpaid. A 3rd string player who nobody knows is even on the team is fortunate to be paid at all...he's lucky a rising tide raises all boats.

Pool players will make big money when there is big money to be made by the people paying them. You can't put the cart before the horse.
 
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Dead Money

Dead Money

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Black-Balled said:
Are any athletes compensated 'fairly'? Depends on whom ya ask...will pool pay fairly, when pros are earning a living wage?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-a-lot-of-work-for-a-relatively-small-prize/
n a list of the top-10 richest sporting events in the world – compiled by Amitesh Jasrotia for BookJelly.com – the Tour's (tour de France) prize list doesn't even enter as a rounding error.

, the Tour de France prize purse is €2,245,800 [$2,505,493], split among the general classification riders, points and mountains classification winners, best young rider, daily stage winners and jersey wearers, and the various intermediate sprints and KOMs along the way. Each rider in the Tour – GC places 20-160 – also gets €1,000 [$1,115.70] for their troubles. That total prize purse is a relatively small amount of money when it's spread between riders, staff and others who get a slice of the pie.
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What about the salaries? The top guys make pretty good money don't they? I am surprised the prizes aren't higher. There is a huge following for pro racing in Europe. One issue for cycling is they can't monetize attendance at events along the road side other than selling gear and what not. At least with stadium sports there is ticket revenue in play.
 
Black-Balled

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dead Money said:
What about the salaries? The top guys make pretty good money don't they? I am surprised the prizes aren't higher. There is a huge following for pro racing in Europe. One issue for cycling is they can't monetize attendance at events along the road side other than selling gear and what not. At least with stadium sports there is ticket revenue in play.
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A guy from near me is a pro rider that is pretty good for a pro, but not winner-good...yet.

Grapevine says he makes around 120k a year.
 
B

BJTyler

AzB Member
Silver Member
Fair Pay

I think formula 1 is an interesting example of how salaries don't necessarily jibe with people's expectations of fairness.

There are exactly 20 formula 1 drivers that get a seat on the starting grid for each race. These are, arguably, the 20 best and most highly skilled drivers in the world - the best of the best - the truly elite. In addition, they each have put thousands of hours into training and practicing - often having invested tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into honing their craft with no promise of financial gain. Furthermore, they literally and legitimately put their lives on the line every time they step into their open wheeled vehicles traveling in excess of 300 km/h. So what is their financial reward?

The top paid F1 driver in the world is Lewis Hamilton -who also happens to be the best currently. His annual salary is $57 million per year. What about number 20? Alexander Albon occupies that spot, his annual salary??? $170 thousand per year. Yes, the 20th best makes 335 times less that the number 1 guy. Just something to ponder.
 
Dead Money

Dead Money

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Black-Balled said:
A guy from near me is a pro rider that is pretty good for a pro, but not winner-good...yet.

Grapevine says he makes around 120k a year.
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That is decent $$!!

A guy from near me won the tour 7 times and made millions! Until he didn't.
 
C

Cron

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Runner said:
And here's the top eSports (gamers) list.

https://www.esportsearnings.com/players
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Another problem in pool is highlighted by the movie the Color of Money. Eddie calls Vincent a flake for seeing money in video games and believing video games will lead to military careers. Thousands this year alone have made more money at video games than any professional pool player will in a life time and thousands have been scouted for weaponized drones.

It boils down to old crusty dudes that can't really play pool well that are still hanging on as if the money hustle is the true skill, and sadly these dudes just won't die out, so the stigmata will remain. As long as that stigmata remains, it just won't change as people aren't interested in that, they don't care how much someone is paid, they just wan't to be entertained. And then there's the 2nd problem, is watching someone slowly putt a ball around entertaining? It's no surprise that trick shot competitions are the only interesting thing in billiards to the average person.
 
Ghosst

Ghosst

Broom Handle Mafia
Silver Member
Cron said:
It boils down to old crusty dudes that can't really play pool well that are still hanging on as if the money hustle is the true skill, and sadly these dudes just won't die out, so the stigmata will remain.

And then there's the 2nd problem, is watching someone slowly putt a ball around entertaining? It's no surprise that trick shot competitions are the only interesting thing in billiards to the average person.
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Do these, "old crusty dudes that can't really play pool well", have names?

As to, "problem 2", North American audiences are more interested in, "flash-bang-go boom", than anything cerebral. Television itself is on it's way out no matter what people want to believe. Investing in a dying technology is a waste of time.
 
J

jtaylor996

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BJTyler said:
I think formula 1 is an interesting example of how salaries don't necessarily jibe with people's expectations of fairness.

There are exactly 20 formula 1 drivers that get a seat on the starting grid for each race. These are, arguably, the 20 best and most highly skilled drivers in the world - the best of the best - the truly elite. In addition, they each have put thousands of hours into training and practicing - often having invested tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into honing their craft with no promise of financial gain. Furthermore, they literally and legitimately put their lives on the line every time they step into their open wheeled vehicles traveling in excess of 300 km/h. So what is their financial reward?

The top paid F1 driver in the world is Lewis Hamilton -who also happens to be the best currently. His annual salary is $57 million per year. What about number 20? Alexander Albon occupies that spot, his annual salary??? $170 thousand per year. Yes, the 20th best makes 335 times less that the number 1 guy. Just something to ponder.
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There are plenty of drivers PAYING THE TEAM for the seat in that sport as well.
 
J

jtaylor996

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What killed pool is the ban on online gambling. That's the #1 reason why it still does well in the UK and HK. If the competitions don't get a cut of the bet revenue, there's nothing left.

There aren't a lot of people wanting to watch a 20 minute safety battle on TV. It doesn't relate at all to participation in the general population. On the other hand, flashy TV pool competitions have too much of a luck element that turns off the dedicated players watching. TV audiences will never be enough to support pool as a sport.
 
S

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
there are plenty of sports where the athletes are making very little money. it's not like discus throwers and weight lifters are all millionaires..

jtaylor996 said:
What killed pool is the ban on online gambling. That's the #1 reason why it still does well in the UK and HK. If the competitions don't get a cut of the bet revenue, there's nothing left.

There aren't a lot of people wanting to watch a 20 minute safety battle on TV. It doesn't relate at all to participation in the general population. On the other hand, flashy TV pool competitions have too much of a luck element that turns off the dedicated players watching. TV audiences will never be enough to support pool as a sport.
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i kind of agree on that bookie and casino sponsors are needed. but there are a lot (like in millions) of people watching 20 minutes safety battles in snooker, without having a dog in the fight.
 
logical

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
jtaylor996 said:
What killed pool is the ban on online gambling....
Click to expand...

Yes, I remember my grandfather who was a pool player back when it was thriving in the late 50's, early 60's used to tell stories about how he would have to go to the coffee shop down the street from the pool hall to get wi-fi to place his bets.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
R

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
logical said:
Yes, I remember my grandfather who was a pool player back when it was thriving in the late 50's, early 60's used to tell stories about how he would have to go to the coffee shop down the street from the pool hall to get wi-fi to place his bets.


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

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Black-Balled

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jtaylor996 said:
There are plenty of drivers PAYING THE TEAM for the seat in that sport as well.
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Yeah...I've told it on here before: I worked with a dude who was a real race car driver. Got a seat on a team, I think it was f3, and he had to bring a frightening amount of sponsorship dollars with him.
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
old news

Indy car drivers and NASCAR drivers have long had to bring sponsorship money with them. Bobby Allison was a fantastic driver but equally important, his Coke sponsorship went wherever he did. Indy car drivers were in the same boat, no room for talented newcomers if they didn't come with a ready made sponsorship deal.

Things aren't always how they appear to be! There are more people that can drive a car well than seats to fill so teams can be pretty picky and driving ability alone doesn't get a ride.

Hu
 
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