SS joint vs ?

12squared said:

For what it's worth....

For various reasons I sold my Judd cue that I loved. The one condition was that I could keep the one shaft that is/was my favorite so we made the deal. I had a few 3/8-10 pin cues that I tried to "marry" the butt and my Judd shaft but never really found the same feel or hit that I had w/my old Judd. So after a few years, I bought no less than 12 different cues w/3/8-10 pin so I can find the one that played and felt similar to my old Judd.

So I was using the same shaft, ferrule and tip on each cue on all of the different butts (some w/collars, some w/o and all different woods) and most did not "feel" right. Some performed close but without the "feel". I finally found the one that provided the "feel" and performance I had w/my Judd: A true sneaky pete made from a red leaf Dufferin. No collar, wrap or buttcap, just wood. The diameter of the collar of the butt is a little larger than the shaft, but that's ok.

Conclusion: The butt matters. Whether it's the joint, wood used, wrap, etc I do not know (I'll leave that to the experts), but the butt does matter even when using the same shaft.

By the way, I found the same to be true w/a Runde Schon shaft I have from the mid 80's. I tried many butts to get the same feel and even othe Schon butts felt differently. I found a Jacoby (one of the few piloted stailess joints that would fit a Schon shaft) that "felt" good and settled on that. But by the time I found it I was happy w/my Judd shaft find described above. But I will say that the piloted shaft and joint added a bit of weight to the middle of the cue.

Sorry for the interuption, I hope it was at least a little on point.

Dave

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Scott Lee said:

Dave...Just another reason why "feel" is SOOOO subjective to the individual! Even the meaning of the word "feel" is extremely subjective, let alone how that 'feel' is transferred to/through the cue and the person using it. The only real debate is how any cue/joint/ferrule/tip "feels" to the person shooting with it. Like you said, when you really find something you LOVE...you should never part with it! LOL

I think we should do another "blind test" at the DCC in a couple of weeks! You could charge an 'entry fee' of $10; have a dozen cues, with varying characteristics and construction. Then tape them up and do a similar test that John did 25 years ago. See if there are any winners in the big guesses...all the $$$ in the pot goes to the best guesser! In case of ties, pot will be split evenly! This could be fun, as there are so many different cues now, than there were 25-30 years ago! :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

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Kim Bye said:

That`s some complicated designs Michael, I`m in awe of the craftmanship, but I`m not sure if it transelates into real world playing characteristics.
Do you use the Gost pin as an A joint or did I missunderstand you?
I`m in full agreement that a cue is the sum of it`s parts and that the way the parts are put together and the materials used will affect the final product.
From my experience where a cuemakers philosophy and craftmanship is most noticable is at the end closest to the ball. The tip is obviously very important as it`s what`s actually hitting the ball. Ferrule material can affect wight (front end mass) so can length of ferrule, length of tennon and diameter of the tennon and if it`s a capped or open ferrule design.
Tip diameter also has alot to say for feel and performance, then it`s shaft taper and material.
As long as everything else is constructed with sound techniques it seems to matter less for the hit. That`s not saying it wan`t play a role in how the player judge the cue, where is the balancepoint, is it a naturally light or heavy cue, grip vs no grip, thick butt diameter vs slim butt diameter etc.
I`m sure that the joint pin used, and the materials of the collar used impacts the overall feel, but the question is: Does it have a big enough impact, so that the player can feel it and it influences his game?
Given all the variables in materials and cue construction, I think it`s very hard to discern the joint pin used, separate from all the other components.
Some joints give a better sensation when putting the cue together, I`ll grant you that, but that is mostly a psycological issue.
The initial question was: the technical purposes of each joint?
I still maintain my initial answer; its to connect the shaft and but together.
I make the assumption that the jointpin, threads or insert in the shaft and the collars are done correctly and everything is faced of right.

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Kim Bye said:

That`s some complicated designs Michael, I`m in awe of the craftmanship, but I`m not sure if it transelates into real world playing characteristics.
Do you use the Gost pin as an A joint or did I missunderstand you?
I`m in full agreement that a cue is the sum of it`s parts and that the way the parts are put together and the materials used will affect the final product.
From my experience where a cuemakers philosophy and craftmanship is most noticable is at the end closest to the ball. The tip is obviously very important as it`s what`s actually hitting the ball. Ferrule material can affect wight (front end mass) so can length of ferrule, length of tennon and diameter of the tennon and if it`s a capped or open ferrule design.
Tip diameter also has alot to say for feel and performance, then it`s shaft taper and material.
As long as everything else is constructed with sound techniques it seems to matter less for the hit. That`s not saying it wan`t play a role in how the player judge the cue, where is the balancepoint, is it a naturally light or heavy cue, grip vs no grip, thick butt diameter vs slim butt diameter etc.
I`m sure that the joint pin used, and the materials of the collar used impacts the overall feel, but the question is: Does it have a big enough impact, so that the player can feel it and it influences his game?
Given all the variables in materials and cue construction, I think it`s very hard to discern the joint pin used, separate from all the other components.
Some joints give a better sensation when putting the cue together, I`ll grant you that, but that is mostly a psycological issue.
The initial question was: the technical purposes of each joint?
I still maintain my initial answer; its to connect the shaft and but together.
I make the assumption that the jointpin, threads or insert in the shaft and the collars are done correctly and everything is faced of right.

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qbilder said:

You bring up a lot my own sentiments in this post, with a couple exceptions. I see the tip in the same way I see tires on a car. It's where rubber meets pavement, but it's only as good as the machine it's attached to. A $2000 set of racing tires won't do crap to help a Ford Festiva, and a $300 set of eco tires from Wal-Mart won't do any justice on a Ferrari. I view the tip the same way I do every other component, even the bumper. They all matter equally & the cue is best when the maker chooses each component according to a final goal. This is why Showman's cue & mine were so similar, although everything about them was different. We both had a similar goal in mind, and although we took different routes, both arrived at the same accomplished goal. Changing a single component makes minimal difference, IMO. Of course all of this is subject to be wrong, because the more I learn, the more I realize how little I actually know.

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Michael Webb said:

Hi Kim
Those are examples of joints not -A- joints. I added the ghost out of a cue because it's quite different. They all play a different role in the overall construction and balance. I did not put examples of -A- joint construction nor will I. My point is everything matters. Not 1 part of the butt but all 3 parts of it's construction combined.

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Black-Balled said:

Thats why they make almond joy and mounds.

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