Exact position vs. zone position

skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are two schools of thought on exact position. Most instructors teach exact or at least very precise position as achievable. They also add a lot of thought about how to maximize the area of acceptable position like going into the line of the shot and so forth but most of the drills they use involve committing to at least 3 balls ahead and getting good enough position to pocket the balls in specific pre-selected pockets. These concepts sound good and probably sell a lot of videos but I don't know if they are realistic for the average player. That is the basis for this discussion.

One other instructor I had told me it was a waste of time to practice a pre selected pocket drill as "it is too hard". Possibly he meant too hard for me or for an amateur, not sure. Anyway there are other top instructors who are more about zones and opportunities.

CJ makes the comment that it is not realistic to be that precise. He says "maybe a few players in the world can do it" but there is no player who could beat him in 8 ball if they had to predict even one ball ahead. There are just too many variables and too many opportunities present themselves. Everyone changes the plan based on the exact position the ball stops in. CJ favors going for areas where he has one specific next shot in mind but if he misses it has a lot of other choices. He hates to get one shot only position. In 8 ball this really helps me. 9 ball is a little tougher. You are forced to hit balls in sequence but you can pick the pockets.

Even in 9 ball I find a lot of situations where I roll into an area where there are multiple pocket choices depending on how far I roll. This is helpful, especially if the cue ball has to travel a long way.

So the discussion is how realistic is it for an amateur player to expect themselves to improve based on precise position? While I do strive for it and practice drills to achieve it, my game has improved more based on seeing areas of "good" position and taking advantage of the best available choices then by getting precise. Is precise position really attainable only at the highest levels of pool? or is it something an amateur can expect to accomplish. Don't get me wrong, I have a 3-4 ball ahead plan, it is just that I am prepared to completely modify it after each time the cue ball stops.

As always your thoughts are valuable to me regardless of your experience.
 
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H

heismii

Registered
A couple do things:

Get to the correct side of the pocket line which allows you to get into the next position.

Ideally come into your pocket line, rather then cross it.

Play position and don't try to get too precise for exact position close to a ball. You have a smaller margin of error when the balls are close.

Use the rails to come into your position line, zone if possible. Playing into an open area requires exact speed.
 
Island Drive

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
skipbales said:
There are two schools of thought on exact position. Most instructors teach exact or at least very precise position as achievable. They also add a lot of thought about how to maximize the area of acceptable position like going into the line of the shot and so forth but most of the drills they use involve committing to at least 3 balls ahead and getting good enough position to pocket the balls in specific pre-selected pockets. These concepts sound good and probably sell a lot of videos but I don't know if they are realistic for the average player. That is the basis for this discussion.

One other instructor I had told me it was a waste of time to practice a pre selected pocket drill as "it is too hard". Possibly he meant too hard for me or for an amateur, not sure. Anyway there are other top instructors who are more about zones and opportunities.

CJ makes the comment that it is not realistic to be that precise. He says "maybe a few players in the world can do it" but there is no player who could beat him in 8 ball if they had to predict even one ball ahead. There are just too many variables and too many opportunities present themselves. Everyone changes the plan based on the exact position the ball stops in. CJ favors going for areas where he has one specific next shot in mind but if he misses it has a lot of other choices. He hates to get one shot only position. In 8 ball this really helps me. 9 ball is a little tougher. You are forced to hit balls in sequence but you can pick the pockets.

Even in 9 ball I find a lot of situations where I roll into an area where there are multiple pocket choices depending on how far I roll. This is helpful, especially if the cue ball has to travel a long way.

So the discussion is how realistic is it for an amateur player to expect themselves to improve based on precise position? While I do strive for it and practice drills to achieve it, my game has improved more based on seeing areas of "good" position and taking advantage of the best available choices then by getting precise. Is precise position really attainable only at the highest levels of pool? or is it something an amateur can expect to accomplish. Don't get me wrong, I have a 3-4 ball ahead plan, it is just that I am prepared to completely modify it after each time the cue ball stops.

As always your thoughts are valuable to me regardless of your experience.
Click to expand...


Great players in rotation games should have the play style like Earl in Dead punch. Not too fast, yet loooooose....Like Ignacio also...they are constantly working on keeping their feel....''in the zone''.

In rotation games....many shots you see great players take, are constantly reinforcing their body/mind (muscle memory)....too gain better control and feel of the table.

When conditions change, they seem to be more aware. I like some of the 4 and 5 rail positions Oschan used in the Mosconi Cup. Those shots help you ''let it out'' and are normal 9 ball. John Schmidt is another perfect example.

Gaining a feel for the table is critical to play top end pool. I'd much rather be a little outta line, and have my swing and speed near perfect, than play EXACT position with a less fluid swing.

When your speed drops in, all shots become easier.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
goettlicher said:
Our SPF Instructors emphasize,
"the correct side of the line".

randyg
Click to expand...

I really get that part!!!! There are times when it doesn't matter, either side or even straight in works, you just take a different path but on most shots if you get on the wrong side of the line you are TOAST. :smile: That is also an argument for a plan B, just in case.
 
Get_A_Grip

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
Playing exact position is a pipe dream for the average player.

I play on totally different tables throughout the week. But I am serious enough about my game where I arrive at least 2 hours before leagues for example, where I play at least 10 games by myself (or with others if someone is there) to try to get used to the speed of that particular table.

But even doing that, there are enough other differences, such as rail bounce, slickness of the balls, table not perfectly level, etc., that perfect position is not possible to obtain.

Even on my home table that I play on every day, changes in humidity are enough to alter the speed of the table to the point that I can't get exact position on every shot.

I think that when you see Efren or other pros do it, I believe that it's because they play on tables very often that are more similar in conditions than the average player will ever hope to achieve. Tournaments with close to new cloth and as close to perfect level TV tables, with new balls or freshly polished balls, etc. These are conditions that the average player is just not likely to ever see.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
heismii said:
A couple do things:

Get to the correct side of the pocket line which allows you to get into the next position.

Ideally come into your pocket line, rather then cross it.

Play position and don't try to get too precise for exact position close to a ball. You have a smaller margin of error when the balls are close.

Use the rails to come into your position line, zone if possible. Playing into an open area requires exact speed.
Click to expand...

Yes, I love all of these concepts and do my best to employ them. Those are all methods of helping insure a good shot at the intended ball.

The other concept is having a plan for alternate shots if you don't get good. Things like, I want to get a shot at the 10 ball in the corner but it is hard position to get good on so if I am short I will shoot the 9 in the side and if I go long I will shoot the 11 in another corner. Having a desired shot but as many other fail safes as possible.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Get_A_Grip said:
Playing exact position is a pipe dream for the average player.

I play on totally different tables throughout the week. But I am serious enough about my game where I arrive at least 2 hours before leagues for example, where I play at least 10 games by myself (or with others if someone is there) to try to get used to the speed of that particular table.

But even doing that, there are enough other differences, such as rail bounce, slickness of the balls, table not perfectly level, etc., that perfect position is not possible to obtain.

Even on my home table that I play on every day, changes in humidity are enough to alter the speed of the table to the point that I can't get exact position on every shot.

I think that when you see Efren or other pros do it, I believe that it's because they play on tables very often that are more similar in conditions than the average player will ever hope to achieve. Tournaments with close to new cloth and as close to perfect level TV tables, with new balls or freshly polished balls, etc. These are conditions that the average player is just not likely to ever see.
Click to expand...

Great point!! I play my home table sooooo much it can kill me in league. Last week I hit a corner shot and had perfect 2 rail position for a breakout on my on two bad balls. I hit it "home table perfect". It hit the first rail, made a clunking sound, went to the second rail and died right up against my 2 ball.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Island Drive said:
Great players in rotation games should have the play style like Earl in Dead punch. Not too fast, yet loooooose....Like Ignacio also...they are constantly working on keeping their feel....''in the zone''.

In rotation games....many shots you see great players take, are constantly reinforcing their body/mind (muscle memory)....too gain better control and feel of the table.

When conditions change, they seem to be more aware. I like some of the 4 and 5 rail positions Oschan used in the Mosconi Cup. Those shots help you ''let it out'' and are normal 9 ball. John Schmidt is another perfect example.

Gaining a feel for the table is critical to play top end pool. I'd much rather be a little outta line, and have my swing and speed near perfect, than play EXACT position with a less fluid swing.

When your speed drops in, all shots become easier.
Click to expand...

Yep speed control is king. And like Get a Grip points out your speed control has to match the equipment you are playing on.

I watch the training videos and wonder how many re-takes they had to do to get it all right. Tor Lowry seems to just keep the camera rolling, very little angle changing or breaks. There are a few but not many. Bert Kinister changes angles and cameras multiple times per shot so there is no way to know if he made errors. I'm not saying he does re-takes, only that there is no way to know.

I just don't want to be striving for something not reasonably attainable if there is a simpler way for a player of my caliber to improve.
 
L

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
skipbales said:
Yep speed control is king. And like Get a Grip points out your speed control has to match the equipment you are playing on.
I watch the training videos and wonder how many re-takes they had to do to get it all right. Tor Lowry seems to just keep the camera rolling, very little angle changing or breaks. There are a few but not many. Bert Kinister changes angles and cameras multiple times per shot so there is no way to know if he made errors. I'm not saying he does re-takes, only that there is no way to know.
I just don't want to be striving for something not reasonably attainable if there is a simpler way for a player of my caliber to improve.
Click to expand...
Kurt Russell in the movie Tombstone: "All I ever wanted was to live a normal life"
Val Kilmer replies in the same movie: "There's no such thing as a normal life, there's just life".
"All I want is a simpler way for a player of my caliber to improve"
"There is no such thing as a simpler way, it doesn't exist, YOU HAVE TO BUST YOUR ASS IN TRAINING..............for a long as it takes."
:D
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Precise position and zone position aren't mutually exclusive.

Of course you should look for an area and a direction of travel that gives you the greatest margin for error and the most alternative options - but you should pick a precise position in that zone and try to hit it. If you miss the precise position you're still probably in the zone with alternatives, and aiming for a precise location means (1) you're more likely to be in the zone, (2) your position play will improve faster and (3) when you actually need precision position you might actually be capable of it.

During practice I like to choose a "stopper" ball as my position target and try to roll up to it softly. Having a specific and visible target gives instant precise feedback on how I did, and speeds up my improvement noticeably. I think it's true of most endeavors that you do better faster with specific, precise goals to measure against.

pj <- aim small, miss small
chgo
 
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skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
Precise position and zone position aren't mutually exclusive.

Of course you should look for an area and a direction of travel that gives you the greatest margin for error and the most alternative options - but you should pick a precise position in that zone and try to hit it. If you miss the precise position you're still probably in the zone with alternatives, but if you aimed for a precise location (1) you're more likely to be there, (2) your position play will improve faster and (3) when you actually need precision position you might actually be capable of it.

During practice I like to choose a "stopper" ball as my position target and try to roll up to it softly. Having a specific and visible target gives instant precise feedback on how I did, and speeds up my improvement noticeably. I think it's true of most endeavors that you do better faster with specific, precise goals to measure against.

pj <- aim small, miss small
chgo
Click to expand...

Great input. What CJ taught me was to define a line or zone that would all be acceptable then pick a specific spot in the center of that zone. That gives me maximum room for error.

The biggest part of it was to avoid going for position on a single ball, so if I am off there is no other shot.

He was running out a rack and said "I am playing terrible". I said "you have perfect position on the 9 ball". He said "oh, I will get out but look. That is the only ball I have position on. That is not the way to play."

Of course some times that is all there is but I am learning to pass up those dead end kinds of shots in favor of another shot which generates multiple options. I think that is the reason so many players can run 5-7 balls. They miss position but have another ball they can hit. It get harder when there is only one ball left. I am learning the value of leaving a very easy key ball to a very easy 8 ball. As they all say, "if you can't run 8 don't run 6". :smile:
 
F

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I thought it was an insightful question. However, I disagree with the last line of the original post. In answering a question like this, experience absolutely DOES matter. The less experienced players will give you theoretical answers. The more experienced players will give you practical answers.

Here's mine: Depends on the game. In rotation games like 9 ball or 10 ball, you don't always need precise position. In fact, often times you can run a rack of 9 ball by playing just zone position. However, a set can get turned around by just one mistake. An advanced player can play a precise position shot on demand, when the layout calls for it. That's often the difference between winning and losing a set.

If you're playing 14.1 or one pocket, you'd better be an expert at precise position shots.

8 Ball is in the middle. You'll need a mix of both zone and precise position shots.
 
skipbales

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
FranCrimi said:
I thought it was an insightful question. However, I disagree with the last line of the original post. In answering a question like this, experience absolutely DOES matter. The less experienced players will give you theoretical answers. The more experienced players will give you practical answers.

Here's mine: Depends on the game. In rotation games like 9 ball or 10 ball, you don't always need precise position. In fact, often times you can run a rack of 9 ball by playing just zone position. However, a set can get turned around by just one mistake. An advanced player can play a precise position shot on demand, when the layout calls for it. That's often the difference between winning and losing a set.

If you're playing 14.1 or one pocket, you'd better be an expert at precise position shots.

8 Ball is in the middle. You'll need a mix of both zone and precise position shots.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input.

The reason I like all levels of response is perspective. Instructors tell you what they teach. Students tell you how they learn. It is hard for a person who does anything at a high level and perhaps has for their entire life to remember what they did not know and how they learned.

I like to hear from players if they have had success following certain teaching concepts. This is especially valuable when the instructors don't agree. I have tried to develop precise positioning for years but have improved my game more by learning to look for options. Precise positioning is hard and can let you down if you miss it. It is like when you miss a difficult safety and sell out.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I would distill the conclusions here as:

Always visualize the correct exact position point.

I think that applies to all levels of players for the reasons stated above. Especially see Pat Johnson's post.
 
F

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
skipbales said:
Thanks for the input.

The reason I like all levels of response is perspective. Instructors tell you what they teach. Students tell you how they learn. It is hard for a person who does anything at a high level and perhaps has for their entire life to remember what they did not know and how they learned.

I like to hear from players if they have had success following certain teaching concepts. This is especially valuable when the instructors don't agree. I have tried to develop precise positioning for years but have improved my game more by learning to look for options. Precise positioning is hard and can let you down if you miss it. It is like when you miss a difficult safety and sell out.
Click to expand...

By experience, I mean playing experience. I don't mean teaching experience.
 
BilliardsAbout

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
skipbales said:
There are two schools of thought on exact position. Most instructors teach exact or at least very precise position as achievable. They also add a lot of thought about how to maximize the area of acceptable position like going into the line of the shot and so forth but most of the drills they use involve committing to at least 3 balls ahead and getting good enough position to pocket the balls in specific pre-selected pockets. These concepts sound good and probably sell a lot of videos but I don't know if they are realistic for the average player. That is the basis for this discussion.

One other instructor I had told me it was a waste of time to practice a pre selected pocket drill as "it is too hard". Possibly he meant too hard for me or for an amateur, not sure. Anyway there are other top instructors who are more about zones and opportunities.

CJ makes the comment that it is not realistic to be that precise. He says "maybe a few players in the world can do it" but there is no player who could beat him in 8 ball if they had to predict even one ball ahead. There are just too many variables and too many opportunities present themselves. Everyone changes the plan based on the exact position the ball stops in. CJ favors going for areas where he has one specific next shot in mind but if he misses it has a lot of other choices. He hates to get one shot only position. In 8 ball this really helps me. 9 ball is a little tougher. You are forced to hit balls in sequence but you can pick the pockets.

Even in 9 ball I find a lot of situations where I roll into an area where there are multiple pocket choices depending on how far I roll. This is helpful, especially if the cue ball has to travel a long way.

So the discussion is how realistic is it for an amateur player to expect themselves to improve based on precise position? While I do strive for it and practice drills to achieve it, my game has improved more based on seeing areas of "good" position and taking advantage of the best available choices then by getting precise. Is precise position really attainable only at the highest levels of pool? or is it something an amateur can expect to accomplish. Don't get me wrong, I have a 3-4 ball ahead plan, it is just that I am prepared to completely modify it after each time the cue ball stops.

As always your thoughts are valuable to me regardless of your experience.
Click to expand...

Players who have difficulty stopping the ball on a (literal) dime, aka, most players, should pick a precise landing point for the cue ball but also decide whether going short or long, should they miss their spot, is better, and play accordingly.
 
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