Sanding Arbors

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fugdbdt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My lathe pins... inserts... arbors, whatever they are correctly called?
Are an inexpensive set. They seem to be fine, except i have allways had more difficulty facing than i thought necessary. I noticed that some of the arbors are much more costly. Can there be that much difference in quality/accuracy. My 6 jaw chuck is spinning at about 1/3 of 1000th out, so i dont think the problem is there.
 
Cue Crazy

Cue Crazy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
fugdbdt said:
My lathe pins... inserts... arbors, whatever they are correctly called?
Are an inexpensive set. They seem to be fine, except i have allways had more difficulty facing than i thought necessary. I noticed that some of the arbors are much more costly. Can there be that much difference in quality/accuracy. My 6 jaw chuck is spinning at about 1/3 of 1000th out, so i dont think the problem is there.
Click to expand...



sanding arbors are different from drive pins. They are made to sand the finish flush with the outside of the arbor, therefore are made from a stronger steel so It doesn't sand away as fast. You can get them made in what ever joint OD size you use on your cues.


Greg
 
R

rhncue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
fugdbdt said:
My lathe pins... inserts... arbors, whatever they are correctly called?
Are an inexpensive set. They seem to be fine, except i have allways had more difficulty facing than i thought necessary. I noticed that some of the arbors are much more costly. Can there be that much difference in quality/accuracy. My 6 jaw chuck is spinning at about 1/3 of 1000th out, so i dont think the problem is there.
Click to expand...

As has been already said, there is a difference between arbors and drive pins. Never the less, neither of these are used when facing a joint or shaft so they don't come into play when facing. Just how did you check your chuck to determine that it is only .00035 out? That amount is unheard of in a scroll chuck on any machine unless the soft jaws were ground to that particular size of jaw opening. I've heard people claim of tolerances such as those on their machines but it usually boils down to that they are not checking run out correctly. Never the less, even if your real run out is close to 10 times that amount, you should still be able to face your parts and joints satisfactorily. The main thing is that the part has to be exactly 90 deg. to the cutting tool. If using two chucks they must be properly aligned and if using a steady rest it also must be properly aligned. You certainly can't depend on your chuck jaws holding a piece perfectly straight. If this doesn't correct the problem then your lathe must be checked out to assure that it is perfectly level (within .001 and .002 from corner to corner) and that they lathes head stock is aligned with both the bed and the carriage. Your tail stock must be perfectly aligned with the bed and head stock also or your holes will be drilled incorrectly.

Dick
 
F

fugdbdt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, i wasnt aware that the sanding arbors were different. However when useing the pins, i thought that if the work piece was cut concentric to the pin, then the opposeing piece had to be cut useing the insert before installing the joint screw and insert. To be honest i never had any luck doing it any other way than just chucking right on to the collars. Its been 1997 since i have built a cue and im sure things will start to come back when i get started. When i was finished, i sometimes could screw the cue together and chuck on to the butt joint collar and push the tail stock out of the way and spin it so dead perfect straight that if you didnt hear the lathe running, you couldnt tell the cue was even spinning. The times that i got it that straight, i was faceing both peices at the tail stock. And the times i did get it that way, i must have faced each piece 10 times at least. So there's something wrong. Concerning the chuck runout.. i ground the jaws smoothe, useing a grinder on my bed ways. In reading the dial indicator, mine has 100 increments from zero to zero, in increments of 10. Now take one of those 10 increments and my needle will stay inside that one increment and only wander about 1/3 of that increment. Years ago i took a perfect 36'' brass rod and chucked it up and and zeroed the head stock with the tail stock. It really does seem that the carrige is not 90 degrees to the chuck though Dick. I dont know of a very good way to check that.
 
R

rhncue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
fugdbdt said:
Well, i wasnt aware that the sanding arbors were different. However when useing the pins, i thought that if the work piece was cut concentric to the pin, then the opposeing piece had to be cut useing the insert before installing the joint screw and insert. To be honest i never had any luck doing it any other way than just chucking right on to the collars. Its been 1997 since i have built a cue and im sure things will start to come back when i get started. When i was finished, i sometimes could screw the cue together and chuck on to the butt joint collar and push the tail stock out of the way and spin it so dead perfect straight that if you didnt hear the lathe running, you couldnt tell the cue was even spinning. The times that i got it that straight, i was faceing both peices at the tail stock. And the times i did get it that way, i must have faced each piece 10 times at least. So there's something wrong. Concerning the chuck runout.. i ground the jaws smoothe, useing a grinder on my bed ways. In reading the dial indicator, mine has 100 increments from zero to zero, in increments of 10. Now take one of those 10 increments and my needle will stay inside that one increment and only wander about 1/3 of that increment. Years ago i took a perfect 36'' brass rod and chucked it up and and zeroed the head stock with the tail stock. It really does seem that the carrige is not 90 degrees to the chuck though Dick. I dont know of a very good way to check that.
Click to expand...

The tail stock is the most accurate way to square a butt or shaft but at times that is not feasible. The tail stock must be parallel to the bed and aligned to the head stock and the head stock has to be aligned with the bed.
There are a number of ways to align these different articles but the lathe has to be perfectly level to align anything. I use a 10" Master level myself. It is accurate down to .0005 in 10 ". If the lathe is out .005 or more my bubble is off of the scale. The lathe needs to be level so as there is no twist in the bed. You can't align anything if you don't know if the bed is twisted or the head stock or the tail stock is not aligned. Once the bed is level then you can align both head and tail stocks. All of this alignment is needed to get precision cuts over the length of a piece of work but actually for pool cues, this precision isn't needed.

Every one has their own way of doing things when building cues and what works for one, won't for another. If I understand the way you are installing your pins and inserts I can understand that you would run into problems. It seems to me to be an awkward way of going about it though it may be more comfortable for you. The last few years there have been taps and pins made that are much easier to install concentrically than in the past. The taps have a pilot so that the threads are much more apt to be cut in the center of the bore than from just using a normal tap. These give much better results. The use of a boring bar and a threading mill will give the best results of all.

Dick
 
K

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
Hello,
There are many ways that El Gato can lose his coat. Many CMs have different ways of doing the same task. That doesn't mean that one way is more right than another. The right way is the way that is right for you.

You can face at the tailstock or you can face at the chuck. When you face at the chuck, you need to make certain that the shaft/butt is perfectly centered at the rear of the spindle. There are several methods of centering. I use a correctly sized 'O' ring. This works for me.

There are many sanding mandrels out there and some are better than others. You need to confirm that the pin/tapped hole, is DNP concentric to the body. A quick way to check this is to lightly chuck on the threaded pin of the mandrel and take a reading on the body of the mandrel via indicator while turning the chuck by hand or at very low RPM. This is assuming that your chuck is DNP. Any run-out in the chuck will be reflected as run-out in your mandrel. If your chuck is within 3/10ths, then this method should work. If your mandrel has more than 3/10ths run-out then you know that the pin is not concentric and you can take this opportunity to make a true-up pass on the body of the mandrel to bring it to the same tolerance as your chuck. Since we're working with wood, I'd say that 3/10ths is pretty damned respectable.
 
F

fugdbdt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
rhncue said:
The tail stock is the most accurate way to square a butt or shaft but at times that is not feasible. The tail stock must be parallel to the bed and aligned to the head stock and the head stock has to be aligned with the bed.
There are a number of ways to align these different articles but the lathe has to be perfectly level to align anything. I use a 10" Master level myself. It is accurate down to .0005 in 10 ". If the lathe is out .005 or more my bubble is off of the scale. The lathe needs to be level so as there is no twist in the bed. You can't align anything if you don't know if the bed is twisted or the head stock or the tail stock is not aligned. Once the bed is level then you can align both head and tail stocks. All of this alignment is needed to get precision cuts over the length of a piece of work but actually for pool cues, this precision isn't needed.

Every one has their own way of doing things when building cues and what works for one, won't for another. If I understand the way you are installing your pins and inserts I can understand that you would run into problems. It seems to me to be an awkward way of going about it though it may be more comfortable for you. The last few years there have been taps and pins made that are much easier to install concentrically than in the past. The taps have a pilot so that the threads are much more apt to be cut in the center of the bore than from just using a normal tap. These give much better results. The use of a boring bar and a threading mill will give the best results of all.

Dick
Click to expand...
Dick, i have a perfect 36'' brass round that i can chuck up and it points to the center of the tail stock center every time. And when i take straight passes on a piece, it will cut within a couple thousandths end to end. Although, i would be surprized if my lathe is level within .0050 with the level i used. So this is where i will need to start. My friend has a level that might work. I have done all the other things you mentioned and more but i will need to go back through that again. I hate even removing my chuck because it was some job getting it zeroed in. But i ordered a new backing plate and am haveing some indexing slots milled into it. Now, as i did last time, when i take the true up passes on the back plate, will this not get me 90 degree's to the bed ways?

Concerning the pins and inserts.... i use a centering bit and about four increasing bit sizes and make my own inserts to end up with a square hole.
 
F

fugdbdt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
KJ Cues said:
Hello,
There are many ways that El Gato can lose his coat. Many CMs have different ways of doing the same task. That doesn't mean that one way is more right than another. The right way is the way that is right for you.

You can face at the tailstock or you can face at the chuck. When you face at the chuck, you need to make certain that the shaft/butt is perfectly centered at the rear of the spindle. There are several methods of centering. I use a correctly sized 'O' ring. This works for me.

There are many sanding mandrels out there and some are better than others. You need to confirm that the pin/tapped hole, is DNP concentric to the body. A quick way to check this is to lightly chuck on the threaded pin of the mandrel and take a reading on the body of the mandrel via indicator while turning the chuck by hand or at very low RPM. This is assuming that your chuck is DNP. Any run-out in the chuck will be reflected as run-out in your mandrel. If your chuck is within 3/10ths, then this method should work. If your mandrel has more than 3/10ths run-out then you know that the pin is not concentric and you can take this opportunity to make a true-up pass on the body of the mandrel to bring it to the same tolerance as your chuck. Since we're working with wood, I'd say that 3/10ths is pretty damned respectable.
Click to expand...

KJ, concerning the cat skinning. My chuck jaws are ground out and i cant chuck onto anything as small as a joint pin. 0.0430 is the smallest thing i can close onto.
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Dick, i have a perfect 36'' brass round that i can chuck up and it points to the center of the tail stock center every time.
Where to get and how much is that rod?
tnx
I dunno if mine can get more dead nuts though.
 
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R

rhncue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
fugdbdt said:
Dick, i have a perfect 36'' brass round that i can chuck up and it points to the center of the tail stock center every time. And when i take straight passes on a piece, it will cut within a couple thousandths end to end. Although, i would be surprized if my lathe is level within .0050 with the level i used. So this is where i will need to start. My friend has a level that might work. I have done all the other things you mentioned and more but i will need to go back through that again. I hate even removing my chuck because it was some job getting it zeroed in. But i ordered a new backing plate and am haveing some indexing slots milled into it. Now, as i did last time, when i take the true up passes on the back plate, will this not get me 90 degree's to the bed ways?

Concerning the pins and inserts.... i use a centering bit and about four increasing bit sizes and make my own inserts to end up with a square hole.
Click to expand...

I've never heard of a perfect brass round. Most test bars are made of hardened, ground steel. It makes for a stiffer test bar to eliminate sag at the end and any marking of the bar from chuck or bumping that would cause false readings. However, for our purposes, it should be fine. When you say that your readings only change a couple of thousandths over the length, just how far is the length? 30 inches and that would be great, 6 inches would be horrible. Yes, truing the faceplate by making a cut across it's face will insure a 90deg. angle between faceplate and bed but only if the headstock spindle is in alignment with the bed. If the headstock is out of alignment then when you face the back plate you are either making it convex or concave depending in which direction the headstock is out.
If the test bar is chucked up at about 12 inches and turns true without the tail stock holding the free end, then your chuck is running true at that opening. I don't know what kind of lathe you are setting up so I don't know your set-up for holding tapered objects such as pool cues. If you have a chuck on the back of the spindle then you need to make that same test but with the bar extended between the two chucks and sticking out around 12 inch again. if it runs true this time and the cut is only a couple of thousands off I would say that it is to little to worry about and assume that the headstock is aligned good enough to the bed. I have my lathe tuned so that it runs less than .002 out at 30 inch. It is hard to get a lathe to run perfect because of wear affecting different parts of the bed in different amounts. Also, it is very hard to get a tail stock properly aligned with the spindle. It's not real difficult to get the tail stock aligned as far as left to right but as far as up and down and being true at both ends of the tail stocks movement is much more difficult. Often, this is where the trouble is and few people look in this area. Often a tail stock is made to be two or 3 thousandths high, to help account for wear over the lathes useful life.
Here is one place to get some information on the proper way to set up a lathe. There are many others on the net but I don't have their links handy.

Dick

http://metalworking.com/tutorials/ARMY-TC-9-524/9-524-index.html
 
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F

fugdbdt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
rhncue said:
I've never heard of a perfect brass round. Most test bars are made of hardened, ground steel. It makes for a stiffer test bar to eliminate sag at the end and any marking of the bar from chuck or bumping that would cause false readings. However, for our purposes, it should be fine. When you say that your readings only change a couple of thousandths over the length, just how far is the length? 30 inches and that would be great, 6 inches would be horrible. Yes, truing the faceplate by making a cut across it's face will insure a 90deg. angle between faceplate and bed but only if the headstock spindle is in alignment with the bed. If the headstock is out of alignment then when you face the back plate you are either making it convex or concave depending in which direction the headstock is out.
If the test bar is chucked up at about 12 inches and turns true without the tail stock holding the free end, then your chuck is running true at that opening. I don't know what kind of lathe you are setting up so I don't know your set-up for holding tapered objects such as pool cues. If you have a chuck on the back of the spindle then you need to make that same test but with the bar extended between the two chucks and sticking out around 12 inch again. if it runs true this time and the cut is only a couple of thousands off I would say that it is to little to worry about and assume that the headstock is aligned good enough to the bed. I have my lathe tuned so that it runs less than .002 out at 30 inch. It is hard to get a lathe to run perfect because of wear affecting different parts of the bed in different amounts. Also, it is very hard to get a tail stock properly aligned with the spindle. It's not real difficult to get the tail stock aligned as far as left to right but as far as up and down and being true at both ends of the tail stocks movement is much more difficult. Often, this is where the trouble is and few people look in this area. Often a tail stock is made to be two or 3 thousandths high, to help account for wear over the lathes useful life.
Here is one place to get some information on the proper way to set up a lathe. There are many others on the net but I don't have their links handy.

Dick

http://metalworking.com/tutorials/ARMY-TC-9-524/9-524-index.html
Click to expand...
With a machinist level here is what is going on. The crossfeed is as much as .0004 or .0005 high in places toward the tail stock. And the bedways are about .0010 high toward the tail stock. And it is twisted a bit at the tail stock toward the back side... the back side being the low side. So i think we have found the culprit. Not much i can do right now because my chuck and back plate are being indexed at the machine shop. I could not download the tutorial for some reason. Maybe i can use someone elses computer. bob
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
fugdbdt said:
With a machinist level here is what is going on. The crossfeed is as much as .0004 or .0005 high in places toward the tail stock. And the bedways are about .0010 high toward the tail stock. And it is twisted a bit at the tail stock toward the back side... the back side being the low side. So i think we have found the culprit. Not much i can do right now because my chuck and back plate are being indexed at the machine shop. I could not download the tutorial for some reason. Maybe i can use someone elses computer. bob
Click to expand...
You need an acrobat reader to read it.
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/index_acro.html
 
jfscues

jfscues

Registered
rhn
tap,tap,tap
do you think these guy's wiil read it. you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
 
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