The story behind the Jackot cues

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HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some people need to learn to read and comprehend. When I said there were no such things as a $1500 cue, I meant in "parts". You are taking the statement out of context. Read the rest of the post.

Parts usually cost the same for any buyer, with exceptions.

The Name of the Maker is what drives the price of the cue...not the parts used to make it.

That isn't to say I don't have Name cues.


Let’s save some of this venom for that rail steeling lying bum of a thief who’s plan is to save pool by robbing folks just one at a time.

At least with Jackpot you got something for your money. Clearly there was deception involved from the very beginning but at least you weren’t completely robbed. For the folks who like the cue they bought, good for you. I hope you enjoy the hell out of it. (And hopefully at a poolroom again real soon!) $500 isn’t diddly squat for something that gives pleasure. For those folks who don’t like the cue they ordered or it’s perceived value just send the thing back and get a refund. I would think Dean would be willing to do that from what I’ve read, if he won’t give a refund after this new information of the builder has come out then he and this Jack guy are crooks. And for those of you that started your reply with “I didn’t order a cue but....”, well this is an open forum and your opinion matters too, just not as much as the people who bought the cues. Still important though, just like railbirds at a money match. I noticed the AZ house pro has a pretty good handle of the situation and out of all the people who didn’t buy one of these cues it’s only his opinion that really matters. I would imagine he has spoken privately with Dean and expectations going forward will be very clear. So hopefully we can move past this situation and concentrate on more important issues.

Like these two issues that came up in this thread- first of all, someone mentioned there’s no way a cue should be worth $1500. Totally wrong here. Precise artistic craftsmanship comes at a cost. From me the cost is next to nothing, but from Randy Mobley who made my custom cue it is significantly more. And judging by his wait list people find a value with him. I paid more than $1500 for mine, been offered twice that much for it and don’t ever plan on selling it for any amount. I have all but one of the cues I’ve ever owned and still only play with this Mobley, I just really like it. And if someone can find that same “like” with a less expensive cue, then rock on- you win. But that still doesn’t mean that some artists aren’t more valuable than others thereby making some cues worth the extra money.

And secondly, the guy who brought fishing into this needs to get funny farmed. Full on Chevy Chased.
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
OK, thank you. I was not happy with people insulting Jim (Hawaiian Eye) - he doesn't deserve it. Dean does deserves it and brought all this on himself. he stupidly inflamed the fire by explaining in full his misdeed.

Hang on, Jim is doing backflips. See my favorite quote of all time in my signature, which contradicts his entire narrative of Dean being upstanding and honest.

If Jim were an adult capable of critical thinking, he would see this was a disaster and say "I like my cue, shame Dean lied to all of us"
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
Hang on, Jim is doing backflips. See my favorite quote of all time in my signature, which contradicts his entire narrative of Dean being upstanding and honest.

If Jim were an adult capable of critical thinking, he would see this was a disaster and say "I like my cue, shame Dean lied to all of us"

LOL I know but he is not the perp, just the last "fan" standing. He bought his used and cheap, priced about right.
 

jalapus logan

be all. and supports it to
Silver Member
Cue prices are artificially suppressed by hobbyists in their backyard. Typical shop rates for people with far less skills or equipment run $100-$150 an hour. There isn't a custom cue made that doesn't have fifteen or twenty hours in it. Hurricanes put the final nail in the coffin of my cue shop but the truth is I wasn't too interested anyway. My shop was next door to my friend's machine shop. I could walk next door any day I pleased and make a lot more money than I could making cues with no wait for my money and no hassle dealing with the public.

No hours wasted on the phone with tire kickers and people "just calling to check how their cue is coming" when in truth they are just bored and in the mood to chat. Fine for them if they have the time but I think average phone time for every cue built is about two hours. When you are talking on the phone to a cue builder bear in mind that while you are talking the machines aren't running and no progress is made on any cue. A moderately busy shop has a couple dozen more customers too. When you wonder why it is taking so long to get your cue made, besides time between steps, time spent dealing with customers is often an unaccounted for hole in production.

There not only are $1500 cues, there should be damned few that aren't fifteen hundred dollars or more. People are building quality cues for less than five hundred dollars, many are building them for less than a thousand. Those are some of the best deals on the planet!

A cue should sell for time, materials, and a consideration for artistry involved. Do the math for time and materials and then add fifty to one hundred percent for artistic abilities. That is a fair price for a cue. A person that has built a name might be able to add three to ten times time and material to the cost of a cue. Look at what other usable art is going for.

A few people selling equipment for building cues led me down the garden path or I never would have gotten involved with cues. My equipment has been gathering dust for years. If and when I drag it out I will repurpose it for something besides cue building other than one I plan for myself. At the rates good builders work for I might just have someone build that one.

Hu

This is the best description of cue "value" that I've ever heard of...for truly quality cue makers. And I especially agree with the bolded quote above.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hang on, Jim is doing backflips. See my favorite quote of all time in my signature, which contradicts his entire narrative of Dean being upstanding and honest.

If Jim were an adult capable of critical thinking, he would see this was a disaster and say "I like my cue, shame Dean lied to all of us"

I knew Jack didn't make the cue when I posted that. You guys aren't as smart as you think you are. You need to go back to detective school.
 
Last edited:

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
This is the best description of cue "value" that I've ever heard of...for truly quality cue makers. And I especially agree with the bolded quote above.

Really the material cost on most cues is negligible, especially if the maker is smart about the purchases, has some parts made for him, maximizes their time and does some volume. Like a basic cue might be $50 or less in parts (just an estimate).

You are paying for their overhead and time. It's hard for custom cue makers to make a buck unless they are really ambitious with a strong following and relatively low overhead. That's why somebody who is banging out merry widow copies can make a buck charging $200, but they need volume to do it.
 

jalapus logan

be all. and supports it to
Silver Member
Really the material cost on most cues is negligible, especially if the maker is smart about the purchases, has some parts made for him, maximizes their time and does some volume. Like a basic cue might be $50 or less in parts (just an estimate).

You are paying for their overhead and time. It's hard for custom cue makers to make a buck unless they are really ambitious with a strong following and relatively low overhead.

Very true. My current player (and favorite cue I've ever owned) cost over 1k, but less than 10k, lol. I found the maker reputable, and ultimately a joy to work with. I feel like my experience is the exception, not the rule. Free press: Kelly Peterson aka MVP cues is turning out a great product. Happy customer here! :)

Now back to your regular programming...
 

trinacria

in efren we trust
Silver Member
The last sentence is laughable.

how so? they will do anything you ask for, anything, and anyone else will charge a hell of a lot more, most cue makers youre not getting a shaft to your specs for less than $200, they build out a whole cue for that amount, so money to customization, theyre the best deal you can find. give me another and ill retract my statement. one guy posted a picture of a bushka style he had them make for $340, give me another maker who would do it for less than a thousand? so for value, I think theyre the best. are they the best cue? absolutely not, that's not what I said.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is amazing how many naive, business uneducated posters there are.
None of them have an inkling what it truly costs to operate a business.

They think like someone is working for a salary when in fact that is not true.
Cue-makers are paid equivalent to a commission only position but they still
have to cope with all the implied operating costs. Any time anyone wants to
have an intelligent conversation about this, drop me a line and I’ll elaborate.

Just think of it this way.....allow for 2 weeks vacation......a cue-maker works
2000 hrs a year based on 40 hrs week x 50 weeks. So we all know that work
is never just 40 hrs week so let’s bump that number from 2k to even 2300 hrs.
That amounts to 46 hrs. week.......not enuf, how about 50 hrs. week then.....
that comes to 2500 hrs. annually. ......how much is a cue-maker’s time worth?

I know auto shops and car mechanics charge a high hourly rate $60 to $90/hr.
Own a BMW, Mercedes, Acura, Lexus.......stop by and see what they charge hr.
So what is a cue-maker’s time worth. Remember the sale of cues is what drives
their business and how many cues can a cue-maker produce annually? That is
why even noteworthy names in cue-making often maintain other professions too.

Then the cue-maker has to cope with all the business overhead from shop costs,
inventory, payroll taxes, insurance (general liability and health coverage), utilities,
equipment, advertising or trade shows, rent, depreciation, breakage, new capital
expenditures, accounting & bookkeeping, inventory......want me to list more factors?

Now if you produce a volume of cues, there’s also employee payroll costs & other
expenses to include but let’s assume the cue-maker is a one man shop. Famous
names in cue-making do not produce a high volume of cues. Names like Szamboti,
Prewitt, Hercek, Manzino etc. make a small amount annually. The number of hours
a cue requires varies with its design complexity. But when you are making less than
a couple dozen cues annually, those cues will be more expensive and often, a lot more.

If a cue-maker made 20 cues a year and charged $5000 each, that’s only a gross income
of $100k. From that he has to pay all the associated costs with owning and operating a
business. And he has to deal with all the associated taxes too from state and city to federal.
How much would a cue-maker actually net after factoring in all the real operating expenses?

Just basing it on an hourly rate, a cue-maker has to allow for anywhere from $50 to $75, even
$100 hour or more. Now this is not reflective of a production cue where there are higher volumes
and often less intricate, ornate designs. Production cues typically involves less hands on work by
the cue-maker than with a custom made cue. So equipment reliance lowers the amount of labor
and thus the cost associated with it. So if you order a cue and there was 20 to 30 hrs of work,
how much should the cue-maker charge? Remember there are materials costs and after you add
up all the expenses, keep in mind that is actual cost, not marked up. The cue-maker has to turn a
profit which means marking up materials and covering overhead and his own time.

Joel Hercek only makes about 20 cues annually, maybe 22 and sometimes less. But two dozen
would be pushing it. Ed Prewitt makes less than that. That is why their cues cost so much. They
are very talented and command top dollar for their cue designs. And it is why they have waiting
lists that extend over a decade too. You get what you pay for but when you want the best, it just
costs more. A Bulova watch is a nice, reliable watch but it isn’t in the class or quality of say Omega.

Same is true of pool cues and cue-makers that are differentiated by price and quality. I think down
deep people who think some cues are overpriced are just envious of what the other person has and
can afford whereas they aren’t able to do the same. Cue-makers charge you for time and materials,
fully absorbed business expenses and a margin of profit......and that’s why some cost a lot more.
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
It is amazing how many naive, business uneducated posters there are.
None of them have an inkling what it truly costs to operate a business.

They think like someone is working for a salary when in fact that is not true.
Cue-makers are paid equivalent to a commission only position but they still
have to cope with all the implied operating costs. Any time anyone wants to
have an intelligent conversation about this, drop me a line and I’ll elaborate.

Just think of it this way.....allow for 2 weeks vacation......a cue-maker works
2000 hrs a year based on 40 hrs week x 50 weeks. So we all know that work
is never just 40 hrs week so let’s bump that number from 2k to even 2300 hrs.
That amounts to 46 hrs. week.......not enuf, how about 50 hrs. week then.....
that comes to 2500 hrs. annually. ......how much is a cue-maker’s time worth?

I know auto shops and car mechanics charge a high hourly rate $60 to $90/hr.
Own a BMW, Mercedes, Acura, Lexus.......stop by and see what they charge hr.
So what is a cue-maker’s time worth. Remember the sale of cues is what drives
their business and how many cues can a cue-maker produce annually? That is
why even noteworthy names in cue-making often maintain other professions too.

Then the cue-maker has to cope with all the business overhead from shop costs,
inventory, payroll taxes, insurance (general liability and health coverage), utilities,
equipment, advertising or trade shows, rent, depreciation, breakage, new capital
expenditures, accounting & bookkeeping, inventory......want me to list more factors?

Now if you produce a volume of cues, there’s also employee payroll costs & other
expenses to include but let’s assume the cue-maker is a one man shop. Famous
names in cue-making do not produce a high volume of cues. Names like Szamboti,
Prewitt, Hercek, Manzino etc. make a small amount annually. The number of hours
a cue requires varies with its design complexity. But when you are making less than
a couple dozen cues annually, those cues will be more expensive and often, a lot more.

If a cue-maker made 20 cues a year and charged $5000 each, that’s only a gross income
of $100k. From that he has to pay all the associated costs with owning and operating a
business. And he has to deal with all the associated taxes too from state and city to federal.
How much would a cue-maker actually net after factoring in all the real operating expenses?

Just basing it on an hourly rate, a cue-maker has to allow for anywhere from $50 to $75, even
$100 hour or more. Now this is not reflective of a production cue where there are higher volumes
and often less intricate, ornate designs. Production cues typically involves less hands on work by
the cue-maker than with a custom made cue. So equipment reliance lowers the amount of labor
and thus the cost associated with it. So if you order a cue and there was 20 to 30 hrs of work,
how much should the cue-maker charge? Remember there are materials costs and after you add
up all the expenses, keep in mind that is actual cost, not marked up. The cue-maker has to turn a
profit which means marking up materials and covering overhead and his own time.

Joel Hercek only makes about 20 cues annually, maybe 22 and sometimes less. But two dozen
would be pushing it. Ed Prewitt makes less than that. That is why their cues cost so much. They
are very talented and command top dollar for their cue designs. And it is why they have waiting
lists that extend over a decade too. You get what you pay for but when you want the best, it just
costs more. A Bulova watch is a nice, reliable watch but it isn’t in the class or quality of say Omega.

Same is true of pool cues and cue-makers that are differentiated by price and quality. I think down
deep people who think some cues are overpriced are just envious of what the other person has and
can afford whereas they aren’t able to do the same. Cue-makers charge you for time and materials,
fully absorbed business expenses and a margin of profit......and that’s why some cost a lot more.
What that really says is that except for a few either high profile makers or a few ultra high volume makers, cuemaking is basically an expensive hobby.

The real money is in forum selling I guess.

Sent from the future.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
how so? they will do anything you ask for, anything, and anyone else will charge a hell of a lot more, most cue makers youre not getting a shaft to your specs for less than $200, they build out a whole cue for that amount, so money to customization, theyre the best deal you can find. give me another and ill retract my statement. one guy posted a picture of a bushka style he had them make for $340, give me another maker who would do it for less than a thousand? so for value, I think theyre the best. are they the best cue? absolutely not, that's not what I said.

I called around to inquire about having a custom maker convert a one-piece cue for me. A simple cue with points. Not a single bling to be added. These were KNOWN custom makers to most, if not all of you. I didn't contact a single production cue company.

The prices I was quoted were something like:

#1 - $500
#2 - $750
#3 - $400
#4 - Send me the cue first. In this case, I knew the guy figured once I'd paid to ship it there, he would be able to manipulate the price because he had the cue and knew I wouldn't want to go through the hassle of having it shipped back and starting over.

We are talking relatively simple work.

The differences in prices were because of the NAMES of the makers, who I won't mention.

This was a while back, so the prices may have changed.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
if you think about things before you reply then maybe you will be able to see the forest through the trees.
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
It is amazing how many naive, business uneducated posters there are.
None of them have an inkling what it truly costs to operate a business.

They think like someone is working for a salary when in fact that is not true.
Cue-makers are paid equivalent to a commission only position but they still
have to cope with all the implied operating costs. Any time anyone wants to
have an intelligent conversation about this, drop me a line and I’ll elaborate.

Just think of it this way.....allow for 2 weeks vacation......a cue-maker works
2000 hrs a year based on 40 hrs week x 50 weeks. So we all know that work
is never just 40 hrs week so let’s bump that number from 2k to even 2300 hrs.
That amounts to 46 hrs. week.......not enuf, how about 50 hrs. week then.....
that comes to 2500 hrs. annually. ......how much is a cue-maker’s time worth?

I know auto shops and car mechanics charge a high hourly rate $60 to $90/hr.
Own a BMW, Mercedes, Acura, Lexus.......stop by and see what they charge hr.
So what is a cue-maker’s time worth. Remember the sale of cues is what drives
their business and how many cues can a cue-maker produce annually? That is
why even noteworthy names in cue-making often maintain other professions too.

Then the cue-maker has to cope with all the business overhead from shop costs,
inventory, payroll taxes, insurance (general liability and health coverage), utilities,
equipment, advertising or trade shows, rent, depreciation, breakage, new capital
expenditures, accounting & bookkeeping, inventory......want me to list more factors?

Now if you produce a volume of cues, there’s also employee payroll costs & other
expenses to include but let’s assume the cue-maker is a one man shop. Famous
names in cue-making do not produce a high volume of cues. Names like Szamboti,
Prewitt, Hercek, Manzino etc. make a small amount annually. The number of hours
a cue requires varies with its design complexity. But when you are making less than
a couple dozen cues annually, those cues will be more expensive and often, a lot more.

If a cue-maker made 20 cues a year and charged $5000 each, that’s only a gross income
of $100k. From that he has to pay all the associated costs with owning and operating a
business. And he has to deal with all the associated taxes too from state and city to federal.
How much would a cue-maker actually net after factoring in all the real operating expenses?

Just basing it on an hourly rate, a cue-maker has to allow for anywhere from $50 to $75, even
$100 hour or more. Now this is not reflective of a production cue where there are higher volumes
and often less intricate, ornate designs. Production cues typically involves less hands on work by
the cue-maker than with a custom made cue. So equipment reliance lowers the amount of labor
and thus the cost associated with it. So if you order a cue and there was 20 to 30 hrs of work,
how much should the cue-maker charge? Remember there are materials costs and after you add
up all the expenses, keep in mind that is actual cost, not marked up. The cue-maker has to turn a
profit which means marking up materials and covering overhead and his own time.

Joel Hercek only makes about 20 cues annually, maybe 22 and sometimes less. But two dozen
would be pushing it. Ed Prewitt makes less than that. That is why their cues cost so much. They
are very talented and command top dollar for their cue designs. And it is why they have waiting
lists that extend over a decade too. You get what you pay for but when you want the best, it just
costs more. A Bulova watch is a nice, reliable watch but it isn’t in the class or quality of say Omega.

Same is true of pool cues and cue-makers that are differentiated by price and quality. I think down
deep people who think some cues are overpriced are just envious of what the other person has and
can afford whereas they aren’t able to do the same. Cue-makers charge you for time and materials,
fully absorbed business expenses and a margin of profit......and that’s why some cost a lot more.

As relevant and succinct as ever
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
I called around to inquire about having a custom maker convert a one-piece cue for me. A simple cue with points. Not a single bling to be added. These were KNOWN custom makers to most, if not all of you. I didn't contact a single production cue company.

The prices I was quoted were something like:

#1 - $500
#2 - $750
#3 - $400
#4 - Send me the cue first. In this case, I knew the guy figured once I'd paid to ship it there, he would be able to manipulate the price because he had the cue and knew I wouldn't want to go through the hassle of having it shipped back and starting over.

We are talking relatively simple work.

The differences in prices were because of the NAMES of the makers, who I won't mention.

This was a while back, so the prices may have changed.

The fact that you think converting a one piece cue into a two piece cue, properly, with tight tolerances and on center is “relatively simple work” is why you love that $500 Schmelke.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The fact that you think converting a one piece cue into a two piece cue, properly, with tight tolerances and on center is “relatively simple work” is why you love that $500 Schmelke.

If I post the names, are you going to go on record here saying which of the cue makers i contacted are the WORST at converting a cue that matches your standards?

I like all my cues. They make balls when I use them.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The fact that you think converting a one piece cue into a two piece cue, properly, with tight tolerances and on center is “relatively simple work” is why you love that $500 Schmelke.

I'm talking "simple", as compared to building a complete full-splice, turning it and then adding bling and intricate designs and inlays.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
If I post the names, are you going to go on record here saying which of the cue makers i contacted are the WORST at converting a cue that matches your standards?

I like all my cues. They make balls when I use them.

You argue like a 14 year old girl.

I have made cues. Still make the odd one here and there. And I can tell you that Schmelke builds one of the worst production cues out there. Very poor QC. Corners cut. Poor finish work. Nothing is built on centre. A $500 plain jane Mezz is built better than any Deano Sckmelke. From tip to bumper.

Feel free to toss whatever names out you want. But please, make sure that they hear you think it’s “simple work”. Any dude with 1 hour of woodworking skill can cut something in half, drill and tap both sides; and add a joint pin. That isn’t how a “good” cue guy would do it.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
I'm talking "simple", as compared to building a complete full-splice, turning it and then adding bling and intricate designs and inlays.

Sorry. It’s actually harder to cut a one piece cue in half, and joint match, than to build a shaft for a cue I’m building....my stuff is on centre.
 
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