Simplest answer why diamonds play/bank short

gregcantrall

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
There was a place in Redding, CA that had a 7 foot valley, that the rubber was loose at the foot of the table. Apparently it had come loose at the two points where rackers would grab the rails to stand up from retrieving the balls. It was loose for just about a foot at either side of the foot rail. Where the rubber was loose a ball would do just the opposite of what you would expect. A ball that should open up would back up and vise versa. Not just a little but a lot.

They had a weekly tournament and it was funny as hell watching the experienced players that were new to the tournament and did not check the rails before playing. :eek:
 
AuntyDan

AuntyDan

/* Insert skill here */
Silver Member
Used to be a bad rail on that at a Pool Hall I played at years ago, rubber on the head rail was lose and the point drooped down a good half inch. Anytime you hit it the ball would jump straight up in the air!

The original question was why GC and Diamonds play different. Other than the already discussed differences in the rail rubber itself and the angles, plus variables like age, installer and environmental conditions, I've always assumed the actual physical construction of the rail itself behind the rubber and sub-rail must make a difference.

That includes the type of wood (or other materials as in the case tables like the Sam K-Steel), how the wood is jointed and how the rail is attached to the frame and/or slate. I'd imagine even cosmetic items like the layer of laminate a GC rail has, or whether it hardwood or Dymondwood for the Diamond tables might make a difference to the overall playing characteristics including banking.
 
Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
mikepage said:
That could be true, but I will point out that the usual situation for friction is that the increased contact area does NOT lead to more friction force.

If you think of dragging a 2X4 over carpet. The pulling force is the same whether it is on the "2" side or the "4" side. Twice as much contact area on the "4" side, but half the weight per square inch--and those things cancel.
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So you think that the differing PSI force curves, contact patch sizes, and durations of contact that result from harder or softer rubber cushions (and bigger and smaller cushion noses/profiles etc for that matter) all end up netting out the exact same amount of total friction? I would be curious to know for sure how everything nets out exactly in the "real world" with the cushions of different hardness (and profile) just for curiosity sake even if the net differences were fairly negligible.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
mikepage said:
That could be true, but I will point out that the usual situation for friction is that the increased contact area does NOT lead to more friction force.

If you think of dragging a 2X4 over carpet. The pulling force is the same whether it is on the "2" side or the "4" side. Twice as much contact area on the "4" side, but half the weight per square inch--and those things cancel.
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You're comparing resistance to friction, not the same thing. Take 2 identical cars pushing 1500hp each. One car has 6" wide back tires, while the second car has 18" wide rear tires. Which car do you think is going to win a 1/4 mile drag race, the car that gets more friction from the rear tires?
 
mikepage

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
You're comparing resistance to friction, not the same thing. Take 2 identical cars pushing 1500hp each. One car has 6" wide back tires, while the second car has 18" wide rear tires. Which car do you think is going to win a 1/4 mile drag race, the car that gets more friction from the rear tires?
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Friction... One concept

Rubber is well known to be weird--doesn't obey normal friction laws
 
mikepage

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Poolplaya9 said:
So you think that the differing PSI force curves, contact patch sizes, and durations of contact that result from harder or softer rubber cushions (and bigger and smaller cushion noses/profiles etc for that matter) all end up netting out the exact same amount of total friction?
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I am not saying that. But I think any difference is likely not a simple surface area effect. Likely it is more complex and has to do with the effective profile experienced by the ball being different for a compressed cushion.
 
Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
mikepage said:
Likely it is more complex and has to do with the effective profile experienced by the ball being different for a compressed cushion.
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If you aren't talking about what I referred to as the "different contact patch sizes" caused by or in conjunction with the different amounts of displacement, compression, and compression force curves for different rubber compositions and different rail profiles then I'm not sure what you are referring to. That's ok though as it would likely be over my head anyway...lol.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
bbb said:
COMPARED TO GOLD CROWNS
i know this has been discussed alot but i still dont understand
why diamonds seem to bank short
thanks
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*Low heat
*High humidity
*Old cloth
*Thin/worn cloth
*Costly tables (hard rubber)

*Hitting too hard/too fast
*Too much draw
*Too much inside English
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Poolplaya9 said:
If you aren't talking about what I referred to as the "different contact patch sizes" caused by or in conjunction with the different amounts of displacement, compression, and compression force curves for different rubber compositions and different rail profiles then I'm not sure what you are referring to. That's ok though as it would likely be over my head anyway...lol.
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Single biggest reason as to why pool tables vary in how they play from one to the other has to do with who's been working on them, and most all ppl overlook that fact. When ppl complain about the pool tables and they play, and blame their like or dislike on the POOL table, how smart are they really. If GCs and Diamonds can be made to play great, stands to reason that the vary SAME tables can be made to play like shit as well, yet they were all manufactured the same to begin with.
 
mchnhed

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
Single biggest reason as to why pool tables vary in how they play from one to the other has to do with who's been working on them, and most all ppl overlook that fact. When ppl complain about the pool tables and they play, and blame their like or dislike on the POOL table, how smart are they really. If GCs and Diamonds can be made to play great, stands to reason that the vary SAME tables can be made to play like shit as well, yet they were all manufactured the same to begin with.
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It takes some real talent to screw up a table.

It took me a long time to learn how to do the rail cloth.
 

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fastone371

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
mchnhed said:
It takes some real talent to screw up a table.

It took me a long time to learn how to do the rail cloth.
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That looks real good there, I like the way that you were able to do the corner without a fold and you dont use too many staples. Keep up the great work!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D
 
2

2andOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
mchnhed said:
So again....
Same Brand of Cushions.
Same Batch Number of Cushions.
Same Cushion Height.
Same Bolt of Cloth.
Same Humidity.
Same Ball Set.
Same Robot Cue.
Same Pocket Size.
Same Shelf Depth.
Same Time Zone.

*****Would they play the same?*****

No.

There's more to it than all of that.
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who says NO ? why wouldn't they play the same if all variables are the same ? have you tested this ?
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
2andOUT said:
who says NO ? why wouldn't they play the same if all variables are the same ? have you tested this ?
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Because not all table manufacturers design the sub-rail so as to maximize the playability of the cushions. Even if everything is identical between 2 tables, if one has a sub-rail thickness of 1 11/16ths and the other is 1 3/4", it don't matter if they have the exact same nose height, the bodies of the cushions are at different positions, therefore the playability will be different.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
mchnhed said:
Different Rails.
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I'm not so sure about that. Reguardless of the rail material used, properly playing Diamonds and GCs will both bank the cue ball 9 rails around and 5 times back and forth the length of the table....so wbere does the rail design come into play?
 
mchnhed

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
2andOUT said:
who says NO ? why wouldn't they play the same if all variables are the same ? have you tested this ?
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realkingcobra said:
I'm not so sure about that. Reguardless of the rail material used, properly playing Diamonds and GCs will both bank the cue ball 9 rails around and 5 times back and forth the length of the table....so wbere does the rail design come into play?
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I should have said "sub-rails".
 
K

kevoka

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
FYI, I just posted a video demonstrating how standard kick and bank shot diamond systems, which work well on most tables, do not work on a Red Label Diamond (which plays very short). Here it is:

Kick and Bank Shot Diamond Systems, and Pool Table Differences

Enjoy,
Dave
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Thank you for doing this.

It has been my experience, playing on the random tables in various places, that each rail will have slightly different characteristics as well. It is always a crap shoot.
 
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