APA Captains - throw or defer?

WillyCornbread · Jan 16, 2018

Question for the seasoned APA captains. If you win the toss, do you prefer to throw out the first player, or have our opponent do so and in what scenarios?

I am a fairly new captain, and I'm finding I want to defer so I am 'responding' to more matchups; however there are many folks who argue that it's always better to throw out.

Any thoughts?

b

drv4 · Jan 16, 2018

It depends. If I know the other teams players well, and if I feel like we have an advantage, I prefer to defer. The reason being is I feel like you control the final two matches by putting up first in the 4th match. By that match, numbers are usually set and you know who will be shooting those matches. Also In Tricups/LTC matches most teams throw up their most consistent or best 3/4/5 first, so you can decide who gives you the best opportunity to start off on the right foot, or throw them for a loop and lowball if you don't have a player that matches up well against a really strong 4.

Also in a worst case scenario, if you have lost the first two matches, I'd prefer to react to who they've thrown up in the third match rather than put up your best player and get low balled.

Bottom line though is that you have to shoot well to win, and I think the pros and cons of putting up first or deferring pretty much even out.

RichSchultz · Jan 16, 2018

Defer....usually.

Celophanewrap · Jan 16, 2018

I almost never win the toss, but if I do I'll usually put up first.
I'd prefer to put up first anyway, we have a sort of first match specialist,
I swear this guy is like 100-0 in first matches it doesn't matter who he plays.
OK, maybe not 100-0, but you get the idea.

rjbigfish · Jan 16, 2018

Always throw first, I disagree with other posters that say they control the last 2 when throwing second. If you throw first you control who plays who in the last 2 matches.

Common scenario is you have a higher rated player and a lower rated player playing the last 2 matches and so does the other team. Both "even" matchups are a coinflip. If you need to win both you make sure you play the coinflips and take your chances. If you just need a win you let your best player play their lower player to secure the win. You always want to control who plays who depending on the score and if you have to throw first in the 4th match you don't have that luxury, the other team does.

Awizzzy · Jan 17, 2018

I definitely differ if I win the toss.

:thumbup::thumbup:

jburkm002 · Jan 17, 2018

Put up first.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

WillyCornbread · Jan 17, 2018

Is there an argument for this?

rjbigfish said:
Always throw first, I disagree with other posters that say they control the last 2 when throwing second. If you throw first you control who plays who in the last 2 matches.

Common scenario is you have a higher rated player and a lower rated player playing the last 2 matches and so does the other team. Both "even" matchups are a coinflip. If you need to win both you make sure you play the coinflips and take your chances. If you just need a win you let your best player play their lower player to secure the win. You always want to control who plays who depending on the score and if you have to throw first in the 4th match you don't have that luxury, the other team does.

Thanks for your response

I'd like to invite another captain who prefers to defer the toss to argue with you if that's alright, lol.

I don't know enough to form a really solid argument in this case, but the longtime captains who defer might have some counter-arguments that I would love to hear...

It seems like the type of thing that would have a rule of thumb for best results, like "Always throw unless you have an underranked player that you must control the match of" or something like that...

Thanks for entertaining my questions

whammo57 · Jan 17, 2018

I have a schedule for my teams and only 5 players show up......... I usually defer if I win the toss.......... but I don't see an advantage either way...............

Kim

Scherf · Jan 17, 2018

rjbigfish said:
Always throw first, I disagree with other posters that say they control the last 2 when throwing second. If you throw first you control who plays who in the last 2 matches.

Always, always, always throw first. Controlling the last two matches can be critical. Throwing first gives you almost complete control the whole match.

Ched · Jan 17, 2018

Defer
The reason being: Most of our local teams have 8 people. If the other team throws first, third, and fifth - then I get to choose the match-up *I* want on 3 out of 5 matches. Being a new captain myself - I also look through their roster's stats prior to the match. That way I have an idea of who their stronger players are by win percentages etc. I've already got a fair handle on who the really good players are in the division (6 and 7) - but I do take notes and keep them for the next time we play.

frankncali · Jan 17, 2018

I am completely in agreement with the "throw first" players.

When I started APA everyone deferred. Myself and another member of our team didnt understand it and when we would throw first they would look at us in disbelief.

I agree that you are more in control this way and if you win the first match you are really in control.

The other group looks at it that they can react to the other teams throws and that might be completely true if teams had no cap or had a bunch of players. I see it that once your into the match you can usually see the lineup numbers before it happens. Putting up first give you an advantage by essentially reacting (knowing the numbers and at times players) and controlling the last 2 very crucial match-ups.

Shawn Armstrong · Jan 17, 2018

WillyCornbread said:
Question for the seasoned APA captains. If you win the toss, do you prefer to throw out the first player, or have our opponent do so and in what scenarios?

I am a fairly new captain, and I'm finding I want to defer so I am 'responding' to more matchups; however there are many folks who argue that it's always better to throw out.

Any thoughts?

b

Here’s the correct answer - it depends. Sometimes, you defer. Other times, you put up first.

WillyCornbread · Jan 17, 2018

Interesting discussion....

Does your response change if you have a new player, who comes in as a four but will quickly be going up to a 6 probably has his true SL?

Controlling this players match feels really important to me as I'm trying to get us qualified in this session. The other teams know this person, and try to duck them with a very low skill level person... Having this person available to 'respond' to who the other teams throws feels to me like it gives me a big advantage, and put some pressure on the other team...

Am I looking at it wrong in this situation, and you just throw someone mid level first, then try and react with my underanked player in matches 2 and 4?

b

Celophanewrap · Jan 17, 2018

I saw a stat one time from The APA. It was something like the team that wins the first
match goes on to win the match like over 70% of the time.
I'm pretty sure I'm included in that other 30% quite a bit

WillyCornbread · Jan 17, 2018

Celophanewrap said:
I saw a stat one time from The APA. It was something like the team that wins the first
match goes on to win the match like over 70% of the time.
I'm pretty sure I'm included in that other 30% quite a bit

Interesting, wouldn't this indicate that you should defer? Surely it's better to respond then throw out?

b

fish on · Jan 17, 2018

WillyCornbread said:
Interesting, wouldn't this indicate that you should defer? Surely it's better to respond then throw out?

b

sold me 70% so win toss have them call first ,always want to get that first win in big matches race to 3 !
they put up 3 times so you control matches for 3
what i like is worst case you lose match 1 and 2 now you can pick who you play in the elimination game
good smart well thought out
practical advice thanks
harry

kcnate66 · Jan 17, 2018

I always put up first when I can. I just plain disagree with the thought process of "you get to match up 3 times". By the time the 4th and 5th match rolls around the numbers are pretty much determined and each team knows what the other is going to play. So I want the opposite team putting up in the 4th match, because I get to match up the last two matches that way. There has been plenty of times that I've been behind going into the 4th match, but because they have to put up in the 4th match, I'm at an advantage.

To combat throwing blind in the first match, I'm throwing my most consistent 4/5 in that match. Preferably a 4 if I have it. No 7 is ever going to prefer to play a solid 4. And a solid 4 is going to beat most low numbers. So I fele at worst, I'm going to get a coin flip in the first match and I control who play who in the 4th and 5th match.

Ched · Jan 17, 2018

I see a lot of people thinking "the numbers have to match up" ... they don't. To use APA 8ball as an example - there are a few 5s in our division that my good solid 3 can take 2 games from before they get to 4. If the other team throws out their 7, I'm not going to sacrifice my 6 just to try to keep the numbers close. I'm going to throw someone who's in a slump but hasn't been dropped yet. It's not a matter of "matching numbers" ... the idea is to win. 9ball is a bit different in how it's played - but if my guy can get his number of balls before the other guy can get his .. I'm putting up that match before I try to give them a "same SL player".

Now that said - If one of my players is lacking confidence, I'm going to look to see first who I think he can beat. People do enjoy winning more than losing - and in the end I want my team to enjoy what we're doing.

Celophanewrap · Jan 17, 2018

WillyCornbread said:
Interesting, wouldn't this indicate that you should defer? Surely it's better to respond then throw out?

b

I guess it depends on how well you know the other team. The object would be to win
the first match up.. If you have a first-up-player like we do the choice is usually pretty
simple, but even he has people that he likes to play and people that he hates to play,
Know your opponent, then evaluate the first opportunity for a match up, then have a plan.
Also realize that your LTC is different than league night, and The National tournament
will be different than those. Take time to educate yourself, watch and learn, don't take
unnecessary chances if you can avoid it.
I think more often than not, if you have a confident first player you want to throw first if you
can. If you have that designated first player it may not matter what they do.
Know your opponent as best you can

APA Captains - throw or defer?

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