touch of inside. CJ has me hooked

judochoke said:

i joined CJS website today, and started watching his video TOUCH OF INSIDE, as i have been missing some long range slight angle cut shots. i can always use more information. i found the video great, CJ explained things very well, easy to understand, nice graphics, good video editing. as for a touch of inside, i started practicing on my table, and i picked it up pretty fast. i watched the whole video, and after he explained a shot, i would go to my table and try the shot. went very well.

i will definitely add TOUCH OF INSIDE to my game. looking forward to watching the other videos in his set.

Click to expand...

TOI will definitely help your game.

I have been playing that style for years and years.

There are a lot of naysayers, but if you practice what he says you will see that it will improve your game.

If you have a table, all the better. You can see the results immediately as you practice through trial and error.

Awesome! Fun to experiment and when something clicks it becomes so much fun.
If you get a chance, see CJ in person. He's a really nice guy and a very good teacher.
Good luck!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Fun to do, and it works. For me, a really good draw stroke is needed often to get around, and I don't always have it

Wouldn't that give me a bigger pocket zone and, in effect, a bigger pocket?

judochoke said:

i joined CJS website today, and started watching his video TOUCH OF INSIDE, as i have been missing some long range slight angle cut shots. i can always use more information. i found the video great, CJ explained things very well, easy to understand, nice graphics, good video editing. as for a touch of inside, i started practicing on my table, and i picked it up pretty fast. i watched the whole video, and after he explained a shot, i would go to my table and try the shot. went very well.

i will definitely add TOUCH OF INSIDE to my game. looking forward to watching the other videos in his set.

Click to expand...

I appreciate the positive review of your experiences with The Touch of Inside technique, glad to share it you,, it took me years to learn, master and teach....I'll describe how it started, although there's several other chapters. .

When I learned this system it was from watching top road players and people would say "he's got the cue ball on a string" it appeared to be! These players had dynamic styles like Vernon Elliot, Jerry Brock, Bobby Leggs, Matlock, and Omaha John, the cue ball seemed to float from position to position.

I started traveling across the country with Omaha John and watched him closely to see if I could tell what he was doing. I couldn't......but I knew the after-contact-reaction of the cueball and started imitating subconsciously, trying to "float" the cueball {as he called it}.

After John and I were done with our trip I ended up in Tampa Florida at a pool room owned by Bill Ammadeo (spelling?) who was a great player 20 years prior. He saw me practicing and came over to the table and ask he could show me something.

I agreed and he set up a very thin cue to the side pocket and ask me to cut it in. I tried and had trouble because it was very thin, had to hit the very edge of the object ball. He stopped me after a couple attempts and suggested I cue the ball sightly to the right of center (the cut angle was to the right) so I tried and feathered the ball beautifully into the center of the side pocket.

That shot opened my eyes to something significant, the object ball always cuts thinner when we use just a "Touch" of inside.....so why not use it on all shots and aim all shots to the inside of the pocket? Wouldn't that create 3 parts to the pocket, the inside, center and outside? Wouldn't that give me a bigger pocket zone and, in effect, a bigger pocket?

Yes, indeed, I had figured out the key to the road player style of play, the only thing left was to figure out the speed of the ideal shot, Aiming, and how to play position, which ended up being one of the strengths of not having any spin after contacting the object ball - this creates a consistent, more predictable path of the cueball, especially off rails.

When you watch closely you'll see some of the world's greatest players use TOI naturally, especially with tight pockets and worn cloth, it's vital for reasons I explain on the pool table, as you saw in my 90 minute video - Thanks again, Judochoke.....hmmm....are you a martial arts practitioner?

The Game is the Teacher

CJ Wiley said:

Wouldn't that give me a bigger pocket zone and, in effect, a bigger pocket?

Click to expand...

Yes, visualizing parts of the pocket can add precision no matter how you explain it.

pj
chgo

Two of the biggest benefits are:

1. Consistent alignment...the added consideration of the TOI anchors you in when just lining up and dropping onto the shot tends to break down.

2. The slight inside cancels out most of your collision-induced spin on the CB, which gets VERY predictable and helps with CB control.

I won't admit to using it all the time, but it can be a powerful tool. Takes about 3 hours to get it down and working consistently...takes a consistent line up (about 1/4 tip of inside) and a medium stroke...the stroke speed makes a difference, and that's probably the hardest part to get dialed in. That, and just draw or follow will get you to a surprising number of places you need to go. The shot will look off when you start, but once you get the hang of it, the shots start to look right to you...your perception gets dialed in to the new alignment.

I've known a lot of really good players that shoot just center line of the CB on 95% of their shots...and they can get the CB just about wherever they need. Too much sidespin has ruined just about every leave I've ever lost.

Just like CTE systems, it takes a little commitment to try it out to see what benefits it may hold for you. You might like what you find, you might not.

judochoke said:

i joined CJS website today, and started watching his video TOUCH OF INSIDE, as i have been missing some long range slight angle cut shots. i can always use more information. i found the video great, CJ explained things very well, easy to understand, nice graphics, good video editing. as for a touch of inside, i started practicing on my table, and i picked it up pretty fast. i watched the whole video, and after he explained a shot, i would go to my table and try the shot. went very well.



i will definitely add TOUCH OF INSIDE to my game. looking forward to watching the other videos in his set.

Click to expand...

I also signed up for this ( monthly). When I revisited the site it says Im still logged in but theres no access to any videos. Whats the next thing to click on the homepage to access all the videos. Getting frustrated.

Requires a password

boyraks said:

I also signed up for this ( monthly). When I revisited the site it says Im still logged in but theres no access to any videos. Whats the next thing to click on the homepage to access all the videos. Getting frustrated.

Click to expand...

Did you put in the password it tells you and your email? The password is pocketbilliards for your membership.

When a player grasps what I just described it will open up an entirely new dimension

West Point 1987 said:

Two of the biggest benefits are:

1. Consistent alignment...the added consideration of the TOI anchors you in when just lining up and dropping onto the shot tends to break down.

2. The slight inside cancels out most of your collision-induced spin on the CB, which gets VERY predictable and helps with CB control.

I won't admit to using it all the time, but it can be a powerful tool. Takes about 3 hours to get it down and working consistently...takes a consistent line up (about 1/4 tip of inside) and a medium stroke...the stroke speed makes a difference, and that's probably the hardest part to get dialed in. That, and just draw or follow will get you to a surprising number of places you need to go. The shot will look off when you start, but once you get the hang of it, the shots start to look right to you...your perception gets dialed in to the new alignment.

I've known a lot of really good players that shoot just center line of the CB on 95% of their shots...and they can get the CB just about wherever they need. Too much sidespin has ruined just about every leave I've ever lost.

Just like CTE systems, it takes a little commitment to try it out to see what benefits it may hold for you. You might like what you find, you might not.

Click to expand...

How are you doing, my friend, it's been awhile, haven't seen that avatar name in awhile, brings back fond memories. Seems like I've lived two lifetimes since posting on AZbiliards - so much has happened, now we are in the Apocalypse or whatever, it's an exciting time to live.....hope you're doing well!

Another important aspect of the Touch of Inside is the ability to create a margin of error immediately at the cueball....at the moment of contact and visually as well.

It's difficult to drop down exactly to the middle of the cue ball visually, especially on a line that places your cue straight back from where you intend to contact the object ball. I wouldn't wan to bet my life I could do that, however, I would bet my life I could come down slightly to the left or right of center. This is because there is a margin of error.

Also, I wouldn't want to bet my life I could hit the exact center of the cueball, and I would make that bet if I was allowed to hit intentionally to the left or right of center.

Let's say I'm cutting a ball to the right, and targeting the left side of the pocket.

I will come down on the shot slightly to the left of center. With a consistent, "pop stroke" (like popping a whip smoothly) if I hit exactly where I'm aiming (slightly to the right) I want my shot calibrated to hit the center of the pocket.

.....if I accidently contact the cueball more to the right I'll hit the far right side of the pocket.

......if I accidentally contact the cueball to the left of where I'm aiming I'll hit the center of the cueball and the left side of the pocket.

This is how I can increase the margin of error zone on the cueball and connect it to the 3 Part Pocket zone at the pocket. The combination of these two factors are synergistic.

When a player grasps what I just described it will open up a new, mental dimension to their game, the only thing left is to learn the "pop stroke" so that you get a consistent deflection (squirt) from the cueball and learn the aiming part which is fairly simple.

Even if you use a low deflection shaft it won't matter because when you use the Touch of Inside targeting, the visual reference will help create the cut, especially when the "pop stroke" is used that I demonstrate in my Precision Pool Drills.

I demonsrate a great way to develop the stroke and know it's correct in just a few hours using some highly effective drills and a visual aid.

The Game is the Teacher

CJ Wiley said:

... if I hit exactly where I'm aiming (slightly to the right of center on the CB) I want my shot calibrated to hit the center of the pocket.

Click to expand...

So, target center pocket with aim adjusted for squirt. Sounds exactly the same as anybody who wants to hit with a touch of inside. Only the motivation changes - I add side spin if I need it for CB control; you add it as an aiming technique. Exactly where we end up aligned is identical.

....if I accidently contact the cueball more to the right I'll hit the faR right side of the pocket.

......if I accidentally contact the cueball to the left of where I'm aiming I'll hit the center of the cueball and the left side of the pocket.

Click to expand...

Exactly the same results everybody gets no matter what their motivation for adding a touch of inside.

This is how I can increase the margin of error zone on the cueball and connect it to the 3 Part Pocket zone at the pocket.

Click to expand...

Since the resulting aim alignment is the same, how does a TOI player have more margin for error?

pj
chgo

Champion players will say they Experienced powerful pool techniques BEFORE they.....

Patrick Johnson said:

So, target center pocket with aim adjusted for squirt. Sounds exactly the same as anybody who wants to hit with a touch of inside. Only the motivation changes - I add side spin if I need it for CB control; you add it as an aiming technique. Exactly where we end up aligned is identical.


Exactly the same results everybody gets no matter what their motivation for adding a touch of inside.


Since the resulting aim alignment is the same, how does a TOI player have more margin for error?

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

You have trouble understanding this technique because you try to comprehend it before you put the 3 hours to experience it on a real pool table.

Champion players will say they Experienced powerful pool techniques BEFORE they comprehended them, not the other way around (like you try to do).

When.you get serious about raising the level of your game a few levels let me know, I'll be glad to help, 'Precision Pool Drills' would teach you a lot.

Do the TOI drills on the pool table, you can't just conceptualize them, it takes table hours for players to reacher their full potential.

The Game is the Teacher

CJ Wiley said:

You have trouble understanding this technique because you try to comprehend it before you put the 3 hours to experience it on a real pool table.

Champion players will say they Experienced powerful pool techniques BEFORE they comprehended them, not the other way around (like you try to do).

When.you get serious about raising the level of your game a few levels let me know, I'll be glad to help, 'Precision Pool Drills' would teach you a lot.

Do the TOI drills on the pool table, you can't just conceptualize them, it takes table hours for players to reacher their full potential.

The Game is the Teacher

Click to expand...

CJ,

You have to remember.

PJ is a "pool scientist".

He isn't a "pool player", like you are.

You go to the table with your cue.

He goes to the table with a slide rule or something.

There is a difference.

I think he uses Magic chalk on his slide rule.

CJ Wiley said:

You have trouble understanding this technique because you try to comprehend it before you put the 3 hours to experience it on a real pool table.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure what I brought up is a matter of simple geometry, which (last I heard) doesn't change with experience.

Anyway, no worries, CJ - I've said my piece and will leave you to yours. Whether or not TOI actually creates a "greater margin of aiming error", I agree with the message I get from your "pocket zones": don't just aim "at the pocket", aim at a smaller part of it - aim small, miss small.

Carry on.

pj
chgo

HawaiianEye said:

PJ is a "pool scientist".

Click to expand...

Because I can visualize CJ's instructions and compare them to "normal" aiming? That's a pretty low bar.

And I think if you apply yourself with an open mind even you can get over it (eventually) and find that a rational approach to pool knowledge returns benefits.

pj <- good luck with that!
chgo

When you mentally grasp this vital difference you will start to understand the power

Patrick Johnson said:

I'm pretty sure what I brought up is a matter of simple geometry, which (last I heard) doesn't change with experience.

Anyway, no worries, CJ - I've said my piece and will leave you to yours. Whether or not TOI actually creates a "greater margin of aiming error", I agree with the message I get from your "pocket zones": don't just aim "at the pocket", aim at a smaller part of it - aim small, miss small.

Carry on.

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

You understand the conventional way of aiming well, and "aim small, miss small" has merit, especially when applied to the tip, cueball contact. I actually imagine the cueball as large as possible and the tip target as small as possible, We can probably both agree this is helpful and I'm sure it's been mentioned on this forum a couple hundred times.

What hasn't been taught in most cases is that it's not possible to see the center of the pocket zone once your shot isn't straight in. When the shot angle increases, it is impossible to see a specific part of the pocket relative to the object ball.

When the player can't see the center of the pocket zone on angled shots, suffice it to say they can't use the center as a reference point for aiming.

One thing you'll see players do is to walk over where they can see the line from the object ball to the pocket.

What are they looking for, a contact point on the object ball?

Johnny Archer is one player that does this and when we were in London for the Mosconi Cup I ask him why he did this. He replied he liked the different perspective, he felt it gave his subconscious information that helped him evaluate the shot angle better.

I ask "so you don't see a contact point or bring anything consciously back to the shooting position with you?" he shook his head, "no, I just wanted a different look at the shot."

So the reason I use the inside point on the pocket for my reference is because I can see it from any angle, it doesn't matter what angle I'm evaluating.

Then, with a Touch of Inside trying not to spin the cue ball I force the object ball into the center of the pocket with a "pop" stroke (this is important) as I described on the last post.

I can also get the same result with a Touch of Outside, although I do have to spin the cue ball to get the same result. In both examples I'm intentionally over cutting the shot relative to my aiming point (the inside point) to get the desired result......hitting the center.

Another thing players will notice when they follow this technique is their ability to "cheat" the pocket will improve. This is very important for better position play because it allows you to change the angle or if you're straight in on a shot you can still force the cueball one way or the other for shape.

So for anyone wanting to test this, just try to run a rack on 9-Ball and notice how difficult it is to see the center of your pocket zone. Then, on the same shots, see how easy it is to see the inside point of the pocket (cutting a ball to the right would be the left point).

When you mentally grasp this vital difference you will start to understand how powerful the aiming part of 'The Touch of Inside' is because of the increased size of the pocket zone.

The Game is the Teacher

CJ Wiley said:

I want my shot calibrated to hit the center of the pocket.

.....if I accidently contact the cueball more to the right I'll hit the far right side of the pocket.

......if I accidentally contact the cueball to the left of where I'm aiming I'll hit the center of the cueball and the left side of the pocket.

This is how I can increase the margin of error zone on the cueball and connect it to the 3 Part Pocket zone at the pocket.

Click to expand...

Beginner here. I've been trying to understand TOI ever since you started posting your video stories a couple of weeks ago. First, I want to say that in your videos you sound like a nice person; you are able to tell your stories without sounding like a braggart. Your self effacing style is a trait that I admire in people.

Now, what you describe in the quote above sounds no different to me than:

Suppose you are cutting an object ball to the right. Aim the object ball at the center of the pocket and hit the cue ball in the center.

1. If you miss the cue ball slightly to the left of center, then the cue ball will deflect to the right, and the cue ball will hit the object ball fuller, and the object ball will go in the left side of the pocket.

2. If you miss the cue ball slightly to the right of center, then the cue ball will deflect to the left, and you will hit the object ball thinner, and the object ball will go in the right side of the pocket.

Click to expand...

But, then you posted:

So the reason I use the inside point on the pocket for my reference is because I can see it from any angle, it doesn't matter what angle I'm evaluating.

Click to expand...

And that seems like a sensical reason to use TOI!

I’ve told many players that learning TOI is very important. It gives you a reference aiming setup similar to Hogan cupping his wrist. By doing that he ensured that he would not hook the ball - which took the whole left side of the golf course out of play for him.

It took me a little while to figure out what you were talking about - all off the table - and then when I had a chance to take it to the table it was exactly as powerful as I thought it would be.

Great contribution CJ.

judochoke said:

i joined CJS website today, and started watching his video TOUCH OF INSIDE, as i have been missing some long range slight angle cut shots. i can always use more information. i found the video great, CJ explained things very well, easy to understand, nice graphics, good video editing. as for a touch of inside, i started practicing on my table, and i picked it up pretty fast. i watched the whole video, and after he explained a shot, i would go to my table and try the shot. went very well.

i will definitely add TOUCH OF INSIDE to my game. looking forward to watching the other videos in his set.

Click to expand...

Regardless of what the system is called, it's been around for a LOOONNNGGGG time.

Many, many players use a bit of inside (toi) in certain conditions. Then again, those same players normally use a touch of outside in certain conditions.

In short:

If felt is old or worn....toi (touch of insid). if felt is new or slick....too (touch of outside)

When you align to the inside point of the pocket, with a touch of inside

sixpack said:

I’ve told many players that learning TOI is very important. It gives you a reference aiming setup similar to Hogan cupping his wrist. By doing that he ensured that he would not hook the ball - which took the whole left side of the golf course out of play for him.

It took me a little while to figure out what you were talking about - all off the table - and then when I had a chance to take it to the table it was exactly as powerful as I thought it would be.

Great contribution CJ.

Click to expand...

That's a GREAT comparison!

Ben Hogan had trouble hooking the golf ball when he was under pressure until he started cupping the wrist like you mentioned. I've experimented with that on the golf course and that's why I hold the cue stick the way I do because it has to go straight especially when I can hit the shot with some speed.

The same thing applies to the Touch of Inside, you want to be in a situation that you can hit the cueball with more speed and it creates more accuracy. When you align to the inside point of the pocket, with a touch of inside the more you accelerate precisely at the moment of contact the bigger the target zone will be (within a reasonable amount).

So, like Hogan I'm taking the undercut side of the pocket out of play like he took the left side of the golf course out of play.

Someone has to be a golfer to understand this analogy, I worked once a week with Hank Haney before he became Tiger Woods coach. He was interested in some of these techniques and applied some to golf and shared them with Tiger. He put one of these examples in his book about Tiger called 'The Big Miss' which was cool.

Pool and golf have a lot of similarities, I've always enjoyed teaching golfers - they tend to catch on to pool quickly when there's a bridge created that connect the games together.