Estimating "opening up" a 3 rail kick?
- Thread starter alphadog
- Start date
Shoot the ball with a bit of curve?
I thought the Plus (+2) System is for 2-rail kicks...?
pj
chgo
pj
chgo
I might have mislabeled it. Corner 5 ? Hell I dont remember what it is called:sorry:
I don't think the word "estimate" is correct here- this is more of a "feel" execution than a mathematical "system" solution. General Rules will apply here: cue ball traveling along three adjoining rails will see a flatter (widening ) angle with low Outside (running) english - "feel" part of this equation and experience only will tell you how much outside to apply to the cue ball and obviously slower speeds will also widen the angle of rebound from cushion to cushion - you will need enough speed to complete the kick and have the cue ball end where you desire- the minimum amount of spin and speed needed to achieve all of this is your starting point in visualizing the result. If the kick involves rails that are parallel to each other on successive contact with the cue- then outside english with revert to inside english when coming off the second rail- how far you need to go to get to that third rail and to the object of the kick will determine minimum speed required. So, to me, the knowledge of how english is affected by rail contact sequence and the experience of how speed off a rail affects angle reaction off a rail are the critical factors here.
lol
So you're going long-short-long and want to adjust to come off the last (long) rail more parallel to it?
pj
chgo
Exactly. Thats the rub:wink:
What you are saying is true, however 3 cushion players have systems for "everything".
So you are kicking at a ball but cant use the the +2 system as there is a impeding ball. How do you estimate english/speed to cause the cueball to come flatter off the 3rd cushion? HAMK ?
A diagram or a table pic would really help.
I get that you want a "system" answer for your question- but when a ball is blocking an attempt to use any "system" solution for a cue ball route - you have to then revert to what we know about cue ball reaction to english, speed, stroke, and rail contact points- so if you go back to my first explanation- you will see how to manage the situation you described- there is no "system" to apply when the original "system" solution doesn't work! It then becomes cue path knowledge applied with experience and feel. that's why Efren Reyes was called the Magician- he seemed to defy known systems!
Uhhhhh
Let me try to explain kicking systems this way. Most are based on running english, which is high inside.
Take the diamond system (aka corner 5), and find what goes to the corner on your table. Probably going to be around 2 on the first rail if your table is in the normal range.
After you know 2 gets you 5 on the 4th rail, instead of high inside (running) english, shoot it with a high center ball. See where it goes. Then set it up and shoot it with a high outside (reverse) english stroke and see where it goes. Try it with extreme side spin and see what happens.
While kicking systems (in print etc) typically only show 1 track for the cb (running english, or if its a no english system, no side spin), use the system as a baseline, and learn the adjustments.
As a side note, the corner 5 system, is a 3 rail system. Not 4 rails. That is why you need to experiment to see what goes to the corner on a particular table. The 5-3=2 track doesnt always go to the corner. But 5 (the corner) hitting 2 on the fist rail, should go the 3 on the 3rd rail, providing you are hitting the ball properly, with the correct spin, and the table rails are square.
There is no magic. Efren didnt defy the systems, he put in the time to learn what the adjustments were and how to apply them. Systems are just a place to start. Some people never progress past that starting line though.
Usually, that would be called "long off the third rail in the corner-5 system." In general you can't manipulate that angle much because the system requires you to use running english on the first two cushions and even if you use somewhat more/less side spin, by the time the cue ball gets to the third cushion it will have close to "normal" running english from having hit the first two cushions in the normal running direction.
Speed will change the angle a little, but I think the main thing faster speed will do is make the cue ball arc out more off the third cushion until it takes the usual angle.
Slower speed will tend to make the cue ball come off the third cushion a little "shorter" (more perpendicular to the third cushion) because the cue ball will tend to lose its side spin between the second and third cushions.
To try and change the pattern the most, play with reverse draw on the first cushion. That will get very different contact points, but it is not within the corner-5 system.
Oh no he di-ent.
Attachments
Bob thanks for replying.
I have found , as you said, cant change the angle much off that third rail, and hit tge same target.
Thanks to everyone who has replied.
My HAMK is hit a milliin kicks so I have and do practice. This ? I posed is the 1 modifcation to a kicking system I never could get a "feel" for.
While that musing may be rooted in truth, when you start talking about multiple rails and spin...there really is almost no similarity between the games.
Why do you say that?
The corner 5 is perfect example of a system of multiple rails and spin that works for both
With adjustment for table
most of the time in 3c the three railer is after contact with the first OB, and the way you open up the angle then is by hitting the first OB thicker. the "natural" shot. the pool style three railer comes up in 3c only when both OB:s are too close together for another option and reasonably close to the corner - the "bricole" / bande avant shot. rarely seen with other spin than running side spin. but sure the systems are similar, and both the natural and the bricole can be done with center or reverse, but it's generally avoided
Hey at least your were thinking
I enjoy your ramblin responses sum aaant sew amuzd