Did The JB vs Lou Match Settle The Great Aiming Debate Once & For All?

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You know, actually this isn't quite right either. What I do is just look at the shot and *when it looks right* I shoot. That's it.

It's kinda hard to explain.

The thing is that the quality and my confidence level in "the view" is entirely dependent upon my PSR. When my PSR sets me up right, my confidence level in my view sky rockets -- I get down on a shot and *I know* I'm going to make the ball. I'd even take it a step further to say that when everything is right with the world, I can see or visualize the entire shot -- replete with the path the CB will take -- unfold before I pull the trigger.

Lou Figueroa

This sounds like your letting your PRS dictate the view, which i feel would lead to steering of the cue on all but the best days. The shot should be sighted and the aim determined before going into your PSR. The Eyes Lead and The Body Follows, if you want overall consistency.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Using "common sense" to excel at games and sports

T0i inside is as big a gimmick as CTE.

So, are aiming systems open or closed types of systems?

duckie, duckie, duckie....when will you ever wake up and smell the obvious?

I guess "drawing" and "fading" the golf ball is a gimmick? (TOI)

How about "drawing" a bowling ball for a bigger pocket? (TOI)

And I'm sure "slicing" and hitting an "American Twist" serve in tennis is also a gimmick.(TOI)

Creating "zones" and increasing margin for error has got to be a "gimmick" (TOI)

A form of Touch of Inside is used in practically all sports that require precision, accuracy and increased margin of error.......to play at a high level anyway.

'The Game is TOI's Teacher'

shooting-ducks-barrel-3386954.jpg
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
T0i inside is as big a gimmick as CTE.

Your avatar ghost ball aiming sketch can work If you roll the CB over the exact table spot every time... if you could even find that spot every time. I don't believe you can. How do you hit that exact TABLE spot when using sidespin? How could you aim that way and throw the OB if needed? Or spin the OB if needed?

That being said... it could be a good way to show a beginning player how to pocket balls. If you think CTE and CJ's TOI are gimmicks I'd say... as your signature states... stick to 8 ball. When you state you're a straight pool rookie... you're going to stay that way if you're actually aiming like the drawing in your avatar. Again... IMO
.
 
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duckie

GregH
Silver Member
Your avatar ghost ball aiming sketch can work If you roll the CB over the exact table spot every time... if you could even find that spot every time. I don't believe you can. How do you hit that exact TABLE spot when using sidespin? How could you aim that way and throw the OB if needed? Or spin the OB if needed?

That being said... it could be a good way to show a beginning player how to pocket balls. If you think CTE and CJ's TOI are gimmicks I'd say... as your signature states... stick to 8 ball. When you state you're a straight pool rookie... you're going to stay that way if you're actually aiming like the drawing in your avatar. Again... IMO
.

Well, that is why there is practice and training with the arrow. Finding the spot on the table is a visualization skill, the same as with any aiming system....you have to visualize whatever method you are using.....case in point, fraction aiming. There are no fractional markings on the balls, so you have to visualize those marks or overlapping balls, in your head, they are not objective. Same with CTE and I don't care how many times you write there are objective points to use, this will not change the fact this is not the true.

The drawing isn't really for aiming but to help the geometry of a shot and yes there is such a thing. Watch this clip for a bit.....than looking at my drawing. Everything is based on the OB going in center pocket or a certain spot on the table. This is the base line for all future adjustments. You just can't poke and hope.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2xhVa2vNgU

My drawing is a static version of what you see happening when the GB in the clip is moving around the OB.

The pivot point for the OB direction of travel line is the OB contact patch. The Start point for the OB direction of travel line is the GB contact patch.

For adjusting for spin, knowing that moving the GB contact patch right, for example, around the OB moves the OB direction of travel end point left helps on knowing which way to adjust for the type of spin being used.

The distance from the pocket the OB affects how much the OB direction of travel end point moves as the GB contact moves. The farther way the OB is from where ever you want it to go, ie the end point, the less moving of the GB contact patch is need when making adjustments.

How much to adjust? That is what takes time to learn and there is no system that can you the answer. Only experience at the table and not always at the same table can give you what you are looking for.

No doubt you think I can't hit the spot on the table....but guess what I can and quite well too. No one can prove I can't.

And I sure hope you don't lose any sleep over my 14.1 game being so concerned and all.....
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
[...]
And I sure hope you don't lose any sleep over my 14.1 game being so concerned and all.....

I know I sure don't. Because you're not truly a 14.1 player or student. You just purport to be.
 

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
Consider this.....missing using CTE the usual answer why is because one did not have the correct visuals.....real clear, definitive answer...

With my concept, If you are going for center pocket, but hit wide to the right, you know the GB contact patch needed to move left and depending how far from the pocket controls how much movement is needed. This can be stored away for future reference.....

Achieving a high level of consistency requires a lot of trail and error.....practice.....training and using a system that does not provide any form of data to be used to make adjustments is a useless system.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Consider this.....missing using CTE the usual answer why is because one did not have the correct visuals.....real clear, definitive answer...

With my concept, If you are going for center pocket, but hit wide to the right, you know the GB contact patch needed to move left and depending how far from the pocket controls how much movement is needed. This can be stored away for future reference.....

Achieving a high level of consistency requires a lot of trail and error.....practice.....training and using a system that does not provide any form of data to be used to make adjustments is a useless system.

Sorry, did you just say that CTE has no form of data to be used to make adjustments?

Well #1 you have no frigging clue about CTE as evidenced by your posts and #2 CTE has possibly the BEST data possible for adjustments. If you miss by a fraction then it's either your stroke is off OR you were sloppy in the visual perception.

If you miss by a lot then the visual perception you chose was flat out wrong and you try another one. That's a hell of a lot better than guessing until you finally get it right.

With CTE you can rule out most of the perception keys right away. You only have a limited set to choose from anyway and most of them obviously won't work. So you are left with a few choices and IF you have practiced enough then you pretty much know the right one. But sometimes you won't be sure and you will choose the wrong one. If you're in a game then too bad you missed. If you're practicing you simply set it up again and choose the other one and find that you're dead perfect.

How much more objective can that be?

If you had the slightest clue what the visuals are in CTE then you would understand how objective they are. They are very simply ways of perceiving the angle from your eyes to the cueball object ball relationship. This DIRECTS where you body goes and that is where you drop into the shot from. Very simple, very OBJECTIVE - as in you look at two objects and align yourself accordingly.

Now, if you come up against a shot that you have never ever practiced or played before the CTE visuals can give you a great chance to make the ball.

How?

Very simple, because you have a limited set of perceptions you can quickly file through all the ones that absolutely will not work and focus on the ones that probably will work. Narrowing it down to that you can make a decision and have a very good chance that your decision is the right one. Thus allowing you access to every possible shot on the table even if you haven't practiced them all.

So Duckie, honestly, shut up. Really just have the decency to SHUT UP about CTE. You talking about it is like me trying to lecture you on Motorcycle Racing. You claimed you spent five years racing. I believe you.

I know nothing about motorcycle racing. I have ridden a motorcycle a few times in my life. So obviously me trying to tell you that a method in racing that you used and are confident in doesn't work would be silly and offensive.

All you are doing it wasting time and making yourself look silly. Do you like to look silly? Do you like it when people who do know their shit think you are clueless? Do you think you are winning people over here?

Look I like it that you appear to be in love with pool. That's great. But you really have some sort of mental issue when it comes to challenging those who know way more about pool than you do. To denigrate Stan and others who have poured so much of themselves into the methods they teach and learn is just offensive and wrong.

Those people just want to see others get better, including you. So at the very least you could own up to your own ignorance and inexperience and sit back and absorb the wisdom rather than pretending to know more than you do.
 
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mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
Consider this.....missing using CTE the usual answer why is because one did not have the correct visuals.

Wrong. Once you gain a level of proficiency with CTE (we are talking weeks to months), you will obtain the correct visuals 99+% of the time. I don't have to deal with the nuances and subjectivity of contact patches. Getting the visual is a NON issue. The issue with missing is most often attributed to stroke.
 

JE54

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would say that sometimes I get the wrong visuals, but I believe that my problem is pivoting wrong. And I'm working on a solution to that now, thanks to other people's suggestions that use the system.
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
jes4:

think one day /few hours with Stan would be an eye opener. Furthermore from my expirience a big hurdle was/is the *believing*. Because you are now (or who ever just started with pro1/cte) using a new perception- and because of that the shot *looks strange* while being down after sliding into the shot. And in that case MANY start to correct...instead of allowing themselve to just shoot.

jmho

have a smooth stroke

Ingo
 

Spimp13

O8 Specialist
Silver Member
jes4:

think one day /few hours with Stan would be an eye opener. Furthermore from my expirience a big hurdle was/is the *believing*. Because you are now (or who ever just started with pro1/cte) using a new perception- and because of that the shot *looks strange* while being down after sliding into the shot. And in that case MANY start to correct...instead of allowing themselve to just shoot.

jmho

have a smooth stroke

Ingo

You bring up a good point. I believe if people do not look at something with an open cup/mind attitude then they are wasting their time. This does not mean that they will necessarily like or agree with whatever aiming system that is being looked at. However, they will at least give it a fair and hopefully unbiased chance, before forming their opinion on it. When I did Randy G's class several years ago I made sure I cleared my mind and was open to any and all criticism in regards to SPF. The video does not lie and it showed some mechanical mistakes I was making. If I went into that 3 day class thinking I'm too good, or this is crap and won't help me than I guarantee my viewpoint on the video showing my stroke would have been the complete opposite with me thinking nothing was wrong in it. Fortunately this was not the case. CJ is sending me the TOI and when I watch it I will have the same open mind attitude regardless if I conclude it will or will not help me.
 
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