Photography: Women's Pool Vs Men's Pool

As a photographer, and with all due respect, you're kinda off-base here.

Sports photography has the same objective regardless of the gender of the subject. The primary objective is to capture the essence of the thrill of victory, or the agony of defeat.

From there it's trying to relay to the viewer the effort, focus, environment, triumphs, losses, atmosphere; what it's like to be there, with a single memorable moment frozen in time.

So women's pool photos are not about highlighting their makeup, or to accentuate the beauty of the female form. This is not a model shoot --- it's a sport, a dual between 2 female pool warriors each with a desire to win.

Capture that and no one will care whether they could double as runway models, or if they look like Quasimodo. It's irrelevant to the shot (photo).

-von

justnum said:

You make some points worth debating.

For women I know when I ask to photograph them, they are quick to say if the photo is bad and never show it to anyone.

Can a female billiard player still have her best features shown while working the table? Yes, but most photographs taken are from poorly chosen positions. And there is very little input from what the person being photographed has to say about.

In this case the women being photographed. I think if one good photographer works the subject and posts, they people can copy that style. Right now it seems no one knows what style I am describing. The cheat is to ask the women if the photo is good or not.

In today's generation of camera cellphones, women know their angles well, even female billiard players. But photographers that capture female players seem to know all the worst angles from tournament play.

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I tend to agree with Von above. I am a sports photographer. I do not change how I photograph for women's soccer vs men's, or women's basketball vs men's. I am quite sure the athletes would find it offensive if I did.

I have never shot pool (in a photography sense), I just have a home table, and have never been to a real tournament (any around here are so smoke filled I (a) could not breath, though (b) the smoke might make for great photographic impact. But (a) rules, I find breathing important.

Anyway...

I think your last statement is also simply wrong -- women take a lot of selfies, but they tend to be horrible angles and bad lighting with fat faces from short focal lengths. A good glamour photographer, or portrait photographer (and I am neither) can really enhance one's look.

But that's not what sports photography is about. A Sports photographer would (as von said) convey the game - and more than that, they try to get angles, points in time, closeups, or something else that a spectator could not really see. They bring MORE than just what one watching can see to the image. Or they are just taking snapshots.

Now, that said... I guess it depends on whether the subjects think they are there for the sport, as athletes (are pool players athletes?), or as sex objects. I am darn certain I will not be the one who walks up and suggests I photograph them as the latter -- pool cues hurt when shoved through your eye.

One day maybe I'll find a chance to try photographing a tournament. In the mean time -- what are you really after in this discussion? Are you a photographer? Or just saying that current pool photographers do a bad job?

Action shots are nice...
...I don’t need to see another picture of a pool player smiling for the camera while lining
up a shot.

This one would’ve been good with a pro photographer on the job..



...shows a truer picture of a player in action with the quirks that make them different

justnum said:

I am learning photography.
....
For the men's side I have photographed a range of pros at pro events. Some like posing for the camera while they wait for a turn at the table. Others are more interested at expressing emotions of defeat. The hills and valleys of emotion through a match differ from player to player.
...
I feel guilty thinking about photos in a match because some people are not sure why I am looking at them.

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I will reiterate the caveat that I am not sure Pool should be considered a sport in this regard, but...

With the exception of humorous or personality shots of sorts, when someone poses for a shot, I would not call it sports photography. During warmups for example I got this:



It's posed, she was just mugging for the camera, it was fun, but it's not sports photography. I didn't try to make her look good or anything, but its at sunset, good skin tones, etc. But you're not going to see that in the sports section.

Later in the evening here's an action shot.



The lighting is harsh, the faces not complementary, but it's a sports shot; it reflects the actual game. It is no different than I would have done for a male, e.g.



There are exceptions, something people occasionally call a "sportrait", where during an event you find an opportunity for a carefully composed shot of the person, e.g. basketball is easy:



Those are the kind of shots maybe a parent would want on a wall (though in this case he may be a bit sweaty), but you still generally won't see those on the sports page. If they want to feature a player, they want to show something that more defines the game, e.g.



Or here's a shot that is more defining of pool photography of a different sort:



Hardly makes them look all that glamorous, but that would go on a press release for the swim meet, not one showing off their cute swim suits.

What defines the game of pool in a photograph? I won't presume to say, but I think the idea of it being different by gender runs at odds with what would be good practice elsewhere.

But then again, as I said... I'm not sure pool photography is sports photography, so others more aware of pool/billiards and expectation of participants or fans in general may be better able to answer.

I just thought you might like an intermission from pool to see some other sports. :grin:

so this picture of jasmin is more appropriate as a sports photo than the pic of jennifer

Well, I would say it depends on what the game of pool is all about.

On my home table I have seen views like one of those, but not the other, but maybe tournaments are different.

On a more serious note, a lot of people do team and individual shots that are more glamour shots than candid/action - heavy lighting, lots of photoshop. The Nike kind of image for posters. I do not mean to discount those, but to me those are portrait type work, not sports shots even if they are of athletes. They are extremely important to the games, as they promote it in ads, sell tickets, merchandise, etc. As I am sure that Jennifer's shot does for pool as well. I'm sure people at this moment are trying to figure out the venue behind her to go visit.

It's just not a sports shot.

When photographing competitors, are credentials needed, or permission from the event director? Model or general releases of some type?

justnum said:

Jasmin photo is poorly lit but appropriate for the billiard context.

Jennifer's photo is well lit but related to billiards in a loose way.

Its doubtful Jennifer had any input on how she wanted to be photographed. I think those shots were for a mens magazine that typically has flesh poses.

Considering who was photographing and for what purpose, the intention was not showing the emotion of the sport. The intention seems more focused on showing the skin.

Today Jasmin is either finishing college or has finished college.
Jennifer is a mom.

If I were to photograph either women for sports photography.

1)A handshake before the lag, possible one racking while the other warms up would be nice.
2)Getting the right line between the player sitting and a player running out is quite rare for the perfect tournament angle (Thats a photo that should be staged).

For solo shots:

Jasmin unloading her cue case with a background like a storm or hurriance behind her would be overly dramatic.

Jennifer rolling her cue bag and possibly a stroller to me would be comical but realistic, background being the airport.
The theme playing up the mom aspect of her as she is a pro player.

Jayson Shaw travels with his family, that has plenty of action of work with.

Jeanette Lee I think she travels with her children on occasion.
She has so much personality, she doesn't need ideas for how to be photographed. Just watching her you can snap a handful of good shots.

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Much like athletes of other sports, I do not care one bit about their personal life. I do not care how many children they have, or whether they are gay/straight/trans/etc, or anything else about them. I do not care to see imagery depicting their lifestyle.

I care about what they do on the field/court/table. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless they are doing advertising campaigns, selling product for large companies, why would they NEED to be photographed in any other way?

In my opinion, the photograph of Jennifer above has very little to do with billiards. I have seen (or have heard about ) similar scenes in some 'adult' films. Doesn't mean that the 'actors' had any knowledge of billiards whatsoever. However, in our minds, we associate Jennifer with billiards, as we know her to be an accomplished player. But what if we didn't know who she was? Would we still feel that it is billiard related?

I think that you are making a stretch, suggesting that billiard photography should be different for men and women. Sports photography should focus on the sport, not the beauty of the individual playing the sport.

You had mentioned that female billiard players put a lot of time into their appearance. I might agree with that. But have you thought about why? I would venture a guess that it is because there is no money in the sport. If there were, endorsements would come from being a good player. Instead, these companies providing endorsements have to rely on the time-tested "Sex Sells" tactic. For that reason, it is more important for aspiring female billiard players to present themselves in a manner that will get them noticed. Ability alone will simply not get them there.

bradsh98 said:

Much like athletes of other sports, I do not care one bit about their personal life....

Geoff Bradshaw
Bradshaw Billiard Service

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So on a somewhat related question... and I mean this as a neutral question from someone who has no clue to someone in the business...

Do pool players consider themselves athletes?

As an example: I was a bit surprised that golfers think of themselves as athletes (I have photographed college D1 golf tournaments), but they absolutely do. And I do nothing different for golf vs basketball in terms of how you treat the players photographically.

I think if you ask a bunch of random high level pool players if pool is a sport the answer would be yes.

But would they say they are thus athletes?

The question is a bit germane to the topic. I think the connotation of "I am an athlete in this sport" tends to distance one a bit. It becomes "this is about what I do during the game" not so much "this is about me". As opposed to, for example, a chef. Sure, there are competitive cooking events, but I do not think anyone considers it a sport, or the competitors athletes; their background and personality remains front and center. So I would photograph Gordon Ramsay differently than Tricia Yearwood (e.g. maybe getting Ramsay throwing food back at someone and shouting, but Yearwood being helpful and mentoring, and probably neither one stirring a pot). I do not mean to imply that we have not gotten to know the personalities of pro athletes, but rather that the game -- and how one should show it in images -- remains focused primarily on the players actions in the game, not the player.

So do pool players consider themselves athletes, that they are "Joe the pool player"?

Or perhaps more like chefs, or artists or politicians or other areas where there may be competition, they consider themselves first and foremost the personality on display, that happened to be performing a task?

Linwood said:

So on a somewhat related question... and I mean this as a neutral question from someone who has no clue to someone in the business...

Do pool players consider themselves athletes?

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Players at the higher levels absolutely consider themselves athletes. They train daily, focus on healthy lifestyles, and go to great lengths to prepare for competition.

However, not everyone has that same level of focus and dedication. I believe there is some in-between. There are those who are very capable, yet not dedicated. Those folks may not necessarily be considered "athletes", although they may be able to compete with the finer athletes of the sport. It's very subjective, in my opinion.

Pool is pool..nuttin else....regardless of any player's gender.
If you photograph a pool player, gender shouldn't matter.

When it does affect how you shoot the subject, you are being subjectively prejudiced.
perhaps because you want to see a woman player's features, or whatever, but you
don't view them as a pool player.

You see them as women first and pool players secondly so you want to accentuate their
look or attire. Truth be told when photographing sports, you take photos of the subject
the same way regardless of the player's gender. Sports photography shoots everyone
alike instead of photos of women in various stances or poses during their pool match.

I think the photo in my avatar is the best pool related photo ever taken.

Interesting conversation!

A lot of pool photography is kind of "dictated" to a degree by the conditions, and the relatively repetitive routines that make up pool. Those two things you cannot really change, within the tournament arena. Lighting, of course being the biggest "condition" factor. Those two factors are a big reason why so many pool photos are so similar. Also it is a sport where stoicism during the competition is the usual demeanor. You do get some great celebrations at the end of a match sometimes, but for those you better be ready, fast, and a bit lucky too. Photographers like JP get lucky a lot lol. :grin::grin:

You can change your angles, change your lenses, vary your timing in terms of situations that you try to capture. But unless you are staging a shoot, you are kind of limited in your conditions... and be ever watchful, patient and as creative as you can

If you are on Facebook by the way, we have a vetted group geared toward serious pool/billiard photographers -- serious amateurs or pros of course. If you are interested, you can find it here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/208491046298231/about/

This is probably my own favorite female pool player photo of my own -- and it was a combination of luck and intent, heavily on the luck part lol:

I like it.

Brightest point is at the eye/forehead/hairline; with people, you generally want the light around the eye. This is in profile, and it still works well.

The red hair and amazing cheekbones help quite a bit, also. :smile: Exposure is perfect.

The chalk position gives the perception of motion; the eye and head position show focus.

Great shot. I can see why you like it.