My First 14.1 League match

14-1StraightMan · Jan 15, 2012

Yesterday, I played my first match in a 14.1 league that I had played in a while back. I had stopped playing for certain reasons..... Well, nothing has changed.
During the match the score was 97 to 40 something (my favor). I was up at the table and I had two balls left, both balls were in the rack area. I pocketed one of the balls, made the cue ball come off the bottom rail bumping the other ball out of the rack area into a great break shot position. Also keeping the cue ball in the rack area, so that I could have ball in hand.
There is no rack lines on the table. The cue ball rolled close to the edge of the rack area but I knew it was in b/c of the marks on the cloth, it is easy to tell with that worn out cloth where the rack area is.
Anyways, I go over to write down my score while my opponent is racking. I look up and I see that he has a different rack then what we have been using for the whole game. A thin wood rack that his son had brought in with him to play his match on another table. We were using a house plastic rack which has a lip on the bottom that makes the rack wider. With the score being what it was, it meant we had used the house rack for 9 racks up to that point. He racks the balls and tells me that the cue ball is not in the rack...... I couldn't believe the Bull he was trying to get away with. I also observed that he had not properly placed the wood rack all the way up so that there was equal distance around the spot. I did not say anything about that. I just told him that I protest him using a different rack, which he got mad. Threw the wood rack back under the next table and re-racked using the plastic rack and I had cue ball in hand. Finally score was 150 to 68.
I wish that i could of beat him even better.

dmgwalsh · Jan 15, 2012

What a weasel move!

Glad you stuck to your guns and made him feel some pain.

Ratta · Jan 15, 2012

Lmao Mikey!
Anyway well done my friend

Guys like these just understanding one answer: watching while sitting and seeing his opponent smiling

Enjoy the game Mikey,

lg
Ingo

Bob Jewett · Jan 15, 2012

14-1StraightMan said:
Yesterday, I played my first match in a 14.1 league that I had played in a while back. I had stopped playing for certain reasons..... Well, nothing has changed.
During the match the score was 97 to 40 something (my favor). I was up at the table and I had two balls left, both balls were in the rack area. I pocketed one of the balls, made the cue ball come off the bottom rail bumping the other ball out of the rack area into a great break shot position. Also keeping the cue ball in the rack area, so that I could have ball in hand.
There is no rack lines on the table. The cue ball rolled close to the edge of the rack area but I knew it was in b/c of the marks on the cloth, it is easy to tell with that worn out cloth where the rack area is.
Anyways, I go over to write down my score while my opponent is racking. I look up and I see that he has a different rack then what we have been using for the whole game. A thin wood rack that his son had brought in with him to play his match on another table. We were using a house plastic rack which has a lip on the bottom that makes the rack wider. With the score being what it was, it meant we had used the house rack for 9 racks up to that point. He racks the balls and tells me that the cue ball is not in the rack...... I couldn't believe the Bull he was trying to get away with. I also observed that he had not properly placed the wood rack all the way up so that there was equal distance around the spot. I did not say anything about that. I just told him that I protest him using a different rack, which he got mad. Threw the wood rack back under the next table and re-racked using the plastic rack and I had cue ball in hand. Finally score was 150 to 68.
I wish that i could of beat him even better.

Sigh. A way to avoid this is to draw a line around the triangle at the start of the game so there is less question about in/out. It also helps with planning for close balls. I use a tailor's chalk on league tables and the owner has no problem with it.

I've heard that in Europe where they tap the tables and consequently don't use a triangle that they draw a line with a standard triangle to define the rack area. Without a triangle area defined there are some object ball positions near the rack for which there is no break shot.

alphadog · Jan 15, 2012

Since there is only one father/son in your league,you could just have easily said "i was playing....."

14-1StraightMan · Jan 15, 2012

Yes

dmgwalsh said:
What a weasel move!

Glad you stuck to your guns and made him feel some pain.

Thanks Denise for the comment.
You hit the Nail Right on the Head.

14-1StraightMan · Jan 15, 2012

Yep

alphadog said:
Since there is only one father/son in your league,you could just have easily said "i was playing....."

Jack: no ones knows him on AZ. Only local players. I could care less. I had one player tell me that I should report him to the League Director, I am not going to do that.
The point of my Thread is to shame the person for what he done. Maybe he will never see this Thread or hear about it. I don't know but I feel he deserves some shame and I need to vent. I would of never thought of that type of tactic. Sometimes I just don't understand people even with all the years that I have working with the public. Why a person in a good situation has to make it turn ugly.

Rich93 · Jan 15, 2012

To defend the idea of leagues a bit, I've played in two 14.1 leagues for the last three years and have never experienced or heard about a weasel move (good word, Dennis) like that. It's all been quite friendly here in Chicago.

9BallJim · Jan 16, 2012

I was playing the son on the next table

I wouldn't say that I saw the whole thing unfold, but I saw the racking of the balls with the house rack, then the racking of the balls with the personal rack, then Mike's warranted comment, then the throwing of the rack and the tossing of the cue ball up table.

The whole thing was ridiculous. Although, Mike is fully capable of defending his position, I felt like going over there and telling his opponent that he must be kidding if he thinks he's going to change racks in the middle of the game.

Interestingly enough, at one point during my match with his son, his son had ball in hand with a ball in the kitchen and no other good shot. Before I could stop him, he said that he knows it's a foul, but he's going to shoot at the ball in the kitchen anyway. After the shot, I informed him that it is actually an unsportsmanlike conduct foul (see below). I assessed his shot as a 1 point foul and told him that I assumed that if a ref were presiding, he would also probably make the same call. I could be wrong.

Without a ref, what would be your call?

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

Ratta · Jan 16, 2012

14-1StraightMan said:
Jack: no ones knows him on AZ. Only local players. I could care less. I had one player tell me that I should report him to the League Director, I am not going to do that.
The point of my Thread is to shame the person for what he done. Maybe he will never see this Thread or hear about it. I don't know but I feel he deserves some shame and I need to vent. I would of never thought of that type of tactic. Sometimes I just don't understand people even with all the years that I have working with the public. Why a person in a good situation has to make it turn ugly.

Well like all the guys already said- you gave the right answer my friend. Next time you perhaps have to compete with him, just ran out-then he could just change the pencil by noting your racks

AtLarge · Jan 16, 2012

14-1StraightMan said:
... I look up and I see that he has a different rack then what we have been using for the whole game. ...

It's also possible that he expected his rack-switching move would cause an argument, and that he would relent if you persisted, but he thought that it might leave you upset enough to miss the break shot from behind the line. In other words, a gross sharking move.

You don't explicitly say, but I'm guessing you made that break shot. Good going, Mike.

BFrench501 · Jan 16, 2012

All I can say is what a moron...glad you won the game and didn't react as he hoped you perhaps would. Good on ya pal, and even more fair play for not reporting the guy. Not because its the right thing to do, but because you chose to avoid more conflict than necessary. That is a good quality in a person.

Bob Jewett · Jan 16, 2012

9BallJim said:
... Interestingly enough, at one point during my match with his son, his son had ball in hand with a ball in the kitchen and no other good shot. Before I could stop him, he said that he knows it's a foul, but he's going to shoot at the ball in the kitchen anyway. After the shot, I informed him that it is actually an unsportsmanlike conduct foul (see below). I assessed his shot as a 1 point foul and told him that I assumed that if a ref were presiding, he would also probably make the same call. I could be wrong.

Without a ref, what would be your call?

What's the saying... the acorn doesn't fall too far from the tree?

If I were the ref, and the player shot knowingly at a ball behind the line, it would be at least a 15-point penalty and an opening break shot. Playing illegally at a ball behind the line is not part of the game. I think the fact that the rules state specifically that it is unsportsmanlike conduct makes that clear. The standard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the 15-pointer.

14-1StraightMan · Jan 16, 2012

Thanks

Thanks Jim for your comment it is well appreciated. I am glad that you spoke up to confirm what I had written.
As for your deal during your match. No doubt he knew what he was doing. Unsportsmanlike Conduct, all the way. He should of had a 15 point penalty. He played innocent like he did not know it was so wrong to pull off that move. He got away with it when you only took one point off. There is always something with him when a match comes up. You & I both know that this is true. I could write pages upon pages of Sharking tactics that he has pulled over the years in 14.1 matches, 8 ball & 9 ball Leagues.
As far as the father, he also Sharks in a very subtle way. I have notice this for a long time now. It is mainly verbal but this time it was outrageous with the rack thing. I am not looking forward to playing my match with the son some time down the road.

9BallJim · Jan 16, 2012

Bob Jewett said:
What's the saying... the acorn doesn't fall too far from the tree?

If I were the ref, and the player shot knowingly at a ball behind the line, it would be at least a 15-point penalty and an opening break shot. Playing illegally at a ball behind the line is not part of the game. I think the fact that the rules state specifically that it is unsportsmanlike conduct makes that clear. The standard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the 15-pointer.

So you are referring to the "serious-foul penalty" for this offense. When would the ref choose to use the "standard-foul penalty" under the unsportsmanlike conduct rule? The rule states different severity of penalties: standard, serious, loss of game/set/match, disqualified from tournament, etc. Just curious.

Bob Jewett · Jan 16, 2012

9BallJim said:
So you are referring to the "serious-foul penalty" for this offense. When would the ref choose to use the "standard-foul penalty" under the unsportsmanlike conduct rule? The rule states different severity of penalties: standard, serious, loss of game/set/match, disqualified from tournament, etc. Just curious.

A referee has to use his judgement. Good referees are hard to find partly because so few tournaments use refs.

If I were the referee, I hope that I'd note the situation, conclude that the kid was under a horrible influence, penalize him one point for shooting directly at a ball in the kitchen, point out to him that there are some plays that just are not part of the game, and replace the balls and have him shoot again.

If I'm asked to be the ref in a league where most of the players have never played 14.1 before and someone tries some funny stuff that kind of seems reasonable (like the corner hook with ball in hand), and neither player knows the rule, I'm going to use it as a teaching moment and point out that you are not allowed to do that with ball in hand and you have to shoot over the line and now that both players know that rule, there will be no slack next time. But I probably wouldn't call a foul.

9BallJim · Jan 16, 2012

Bob Jewett said:
A referee has to use his judgement. Good referees are hard to find partly because so few tournaments use refs.

If I were the referee, I hope that I'd note the situation, conclude that the kid was under a horrible influence, penalize him one point for shooting directly at a ball in the kitchen, point out to him that there are some plays that just are not part of the game, and replace the balls and have him shoot again.

If I'm asked to be the ref in a league where most of the players have never played 14.1 before and someone tries some funny stuff that kind of seems reasonable (like the corner hook with ball in hand), and neither player knows the rule, I'm going to use it as a teaching moment and point out that you are not allowed to do that with ball in hand and you have to shoot over the line and now that both players know that rule, there will be no slack next time. But I probably wouldn't call a foul.

I like your response to turn it into a teaching moment.

Actually, this kid is in his early - mid 30s and is a strong player. I don't know exactly what his high run is, but I believe he told me that he ran into the 70s before. So, no doubt he has talent and plays well. I think it's just his lack of motivation to learn all the rules. And to his defense, I believe he didn't think it was as severe as the rule states. And to tell you the truth, when I read the rules several times even before playing my first league match years ago, I too was surprised that this shot is considered unsportsmanlike play. It doesn't seem to be of the same magnitude as the examples (a - h) listed in the rule.

14-1StraightMan · Jan 16, 2012

He Knows

9BallJim said:
I like your response to turn it into a teaching moment.

Actually, this kid is in his early - mid 30s and is a strong player. I don't know exactly what his high run is, but I believe he told me that he ran into the 70s before. So, no doubt he has talent and plays well. I think it's just his lack of motivation to learn all the rules. And to his defense, I believe he didn't think it was as severe as the rule states. And to tell you the truth, when I read the rules several times even before playing my first league match years ago, I too was surprised that this shot is considered unsportsmanlike play. It doesn't seem to be of the same magnitude as the examples (a - h) listed in the rule.

You're too nice. He has been playing in this 14.1 League for many years. There is two seasons per year. He has been playing a long time.

AtLarge · Jan 16, 2012

9BallJim said:
... I too was surprised that this shot is considered unsportsmanlike play. It doesn't seem to be of the same magnitude as the examples (a - h) listed in the rule.

It could be a game-deciding move, just like the others.

Lonestar_jim · Jan 17, 2012

always

AtLarge said:
It could be a game-deciding move, just like the others.

All the fouls that wind up in controversy can usually swing momentum if not the outcome, good point.

Bob Jewett said:
conclude that the kid was under a[/I]horrible influence[/I]

emphasis added

Am I reading this wrong ? Pretty funny.

My First 14.1 League match

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