Parallel shifting with LD shaft versus backhand english from pivot point

Which is a more accurate / repeatable method of applying english?

  • LD shaft with a shift

    Votes: 15 48.4%

  • BHE english (non-LD shaft) bridging from the pivot point of that particular shaft/cue

    Votes: 16 51.6%
  • Total voters
    31
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
After reading the other thread, I'm curious to read others' opinions on which is a more accurate method of applying english. I know there are a lot of ways to apply english: shifting, front-hand english, back-hand english or even a combination of two or all three methods.

Since BHE and shifting are prob the most popular techniques, which do you think is more accurate in the grand scheme of things (all things considered)?

Assume a non-LD shaft for the BHE. So, the question is a leading LD shaft with a shift versus a non-LD shaft and BHE pivoting from the pivot point of that given shaft.

I'm hoping this doesn't become a popularity poll: "I use BHE so I'm choosing that..." I hope those who vote have experimented thoroughly with both methods and can post their thoughts on their findings and why they voted the way they did.

For me, I've played extensively with both over the last few years - but I'll save my comments for the end.

Thanks in advance.
Dave
 
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Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
It's unclear what you're asking. When you say "parallel shifting" or "with a shift", do you mean shooting with the stick parallel to the cue ball's intended path (the mostly impossible fantasy definition) or do you mean any method other than BHE?

When you say "pivoting from the pivot point" do you mean from the actual "natural pivot point" (which mostly can't work) or from some adjusted pivot point depending on swerve?

The way your poll is worded it sounds like you're asking "do you compensate for squirt using impossible method A or impossible method B?".

pj
chgo
 
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
It's unclear what you're asking. When you say "parallel shifting" or "with a shift", do you mean shooting with the stick parallel to the cue ball's intended path (the mostly impossible fantasy definition) or do you mean any method other than BHE?

When you say "pivoting from the pivot point" do you mean from the actual "natural pivot point" (which mostly can't work) or from some adjusted pivot point depending on swerve?

The way your poll is worded it sounds like you're asking "do you compensate for squirt using impossible method A or impossible method B?".

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

PJ, basically you're right. Both require adjustments-- you know that, I know that, we all know that. Don't over-complicate things. I'm just asking, which do you adjust less for (more accurate)?

The poll is worded for practical application-- not as a geometry proof. There are players here who obviously parallel shift (what I meant by "shift") and those who pivot their backhand. Without debating the mechanics of each (swerve variable), which method do players feel gives them the best chance of making the ball with the fewest cognitive adjustments?

That make better sense?

I'm hoping those who vote have played with both "methods of play" extensively and don't just vote for what they use blindly.

P.S.

Pj, the reason I said "pivot point of the shaft" is because if someone never takes that into consideration at ALL with BHE, they're either getting lucky or they're NEVER make a ball ever. So, I wanted to get into the general ballpark.
 
Last edited:
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
SpiderWebComm said:
PJ, basically you're right. Both require adjustments-- you know that, I know that, we all know that. Don't over-complicate things. I'm just asking, which do you adjust less for (more accurate)?

The poll is worded for practical application-- not as a geometry proof. There are players here who obviously parallel shift (what I meant by "shift") and those who pivot their backhand. Without debating the mechanics of each (swerve variable), which method do players feel gives them the best chance of making the ball with the fewest cognitive adjustments?

That make better sense?

I'm hoping those who vote have played with both "methods of play" extensively and don't just vote for what they use blindly.

P.S.

Pj, the reason I said "pivot point of the shaft" is because if someone never takes that into consideration at ALL with BHE, they're either getting lucky or they're NEVER make a ball ever. So, I wanted to get into the general ballpark.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying. Hope it helps you get more meaningful answers.

pj
chgo
 
Jaden

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
well....

SpiderWebComm said:
After reading the other thread, I'm curious to read others' opinions on which is a more accurate method of applying english. I know there are a lot of ways to apply english: shifting, front-hand english, back-hand english or even a combination of two or all three methods.

Since BHE and shifting are prob the most popular techniques, which do you think is more accurate in the grand scheme of things (all things considered)?

Assume a non-LD shaft for the BHE. So, the question is a leading LD shaft with a shift versus a non-LD shaft and BHE pivoting from the pivot point of that given shaft.

I'm hoping this doesn't become a popularity poll: "I use BHE so I'm choosing that..." I hope those who vote have experimented thoroughly with both methods and can post their thoughts on their findings and why they voted the way they did.

For me, I've played extensively with both over the last few years - but I'll save my comments for the end.

Thanks in advance.
Dave
Click to expand...

Although I haven't gotten a chance to truly test the parallel shift method extensively, I'm going to go with LD and parallel shift.

Not because it is necesarily more accurate, but because it requires less thought and provides for less variation in stroke than BHE does.

Jaden
 
Hierovision

Hierovision

Dios mio, man.
Silver Member
Jaden said:
Not because it is necesarily more accurate, but because it requires less thought and provides for less variation in stroke than BHE does.

Jaden
Click to expand...

Same reason here. The less conscious thought the better. That's why I'm ordering a Z2. I had a Z previously and used the shift method for a little over a year. Sold it and started using a solid maple shaft. Been using solid shafts for a few years now and I still can't aim quite as well on certain shots (requiring a pivot and lots of mental calculation) as when I had the Z.
 
Chi2dxa

Chi2dxa

Lost over C&D Triangle
Silver Member
SpiderWebComm said:
After reading the other thread, I'm curious to read others' opinions on which is a more accurate method of applying english. I know there are a lot of ways to apply english: shifting, front-hand english, back-hand english or even a combination of two or all three methods.

Since BHE and shifting are prob the most popular techniques, which do you think is more accurate in the grand scheme of things (all things considered)?

Assume a non-LD shaft for the BHE. So, the question is a leading LD shaft with a shift versus a non-LD shaft and BHE pivoting from the pivot point of that given shaft.

I'm hoping this doesn't become a popularity poll: "I use BHE so I'm choosing that..." I hope those who vote have experimented thoroughly with both methods and can post their thoughts on their findings and why they voted the way they did.

For me, I've played extensively with both over the last few years - but I'll save my comments for the end.

Thanks in advance.
Dave
Click to expand...


I use BHE with Meucci BlackDot Shaft now and I love it. I will use BHE with any cue that I put in my hands now. BHE gives me more action on the CB, better and more accurate aim and CB control. I Just revisited BHE about a week ago after looking at a video done by jbideastoo on Youtube and was sold no more parallel for me. I notice Cliff Joyner just the other day and saw him use it also along with long bridge length and it seemed to be working fine for him.
 
12310bch

12310bch

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let's shoot with a broomstick

SpiderWebComm said:
Assume a non-LD shaft for the BHE. So, the question is a leading LD shaft with a shift versus a non-LD shaft and BHE pivoting from the pivot point of that given shaft.
Dave
Click to expand...

WTF are you spewing forth here. I cannot believe the legendary masters of pocket billiards needed this stuff in order to run 150 and out. I don't think they would use it anyhow. I'm sorry if I seem so negative. I'm not a technician and this stuff is way over my head. I just have to ask, " what problem does this solve?" I don't know any good shooters that discuss this stuff. It usually goes like this;
" Try this stick it really hits good . Okay let me try. Nahh. It's to whippy for me. Whadya mean whippy? I just paid $200 for that shaft. I hate whippy cues. You don't know what your talking about."

To me the feel is what it's all about. The perception that a cue is right for you is more important than all the scientific facts. If it feels good to you that's the right cue. Don't let anybody talk you
out of it.

Of course this is the humble opinion of a C- player. Aspiring to be a
solid C before he expires. :grin:
 
mworkman

mworkman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hmm

I never heard of BHE untill a friend of mine showed me this year. I just learned through many hours of practice where to hit it. Now, if I'm not sure of my self on the shot, or if I really have to put alot of pace on the ball, I use BHE. I use BHE mostly on the longer shots that I have to hit fairly firm, it seems to work pretty well. So, I'd say it's ok to use both methods, and they both work, so use whatever you want. :rolleyes:
 
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
12310bch said:
WTF are you spewing forth here. I cannot believe the legendary masters of pocket billiards needed this stuff in order to run 150 and out. I don't think they would use it anyhow. I'm sorry if I seem so negative. I'm not a technician and this stuff is way over my head. I just have to ask, " what problem does this solve?" I don't know any good shooters that discuss this stuff. It usually goes like this;
" Try this stick it really hits good . Okay let me try. Nahh. It's to whippy for me. Whadya mean whippy? I just paid $200 for that shaft. I hate whippy cues. You don't know what your talking about."

To me the feel is what it's all about. The perception that a cue is right for you is more important than all the scientific facts. If it feels good to you that's the right cue. Don't let anybody talk you
out of it.

Of course this is the humble opinion of a C- player. Aspiring to be a
solid C before he expires. :grin:
Click to expand...

I think most of the past masters never thought about it because there wasn't the education available during those times like there is today. All players either shift, move their bridge hand, move their backhand or do a little of everything.

There's nothing wrong with a little introspection and self-recognition of what you do. For every master that doesn't think about it--- nowadays, there's prob 3 who know exactly what they do.

Why wouldn't you want to know how you play? Just my 2-cents.

Anyways, looks pretty split down the middle--- very interesting.
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Spidey,

Didn't you see the BHE, FHE, and pivot-length stuff in VEPS-I? I think the video covered everything fairly well, showing that there is no simple answer to your question. The answer depends on your preferred bridge length, the natural pivot length of the cue, the shot distance, the shot speed, the cue elevation. Here's an excerpt from this section of the video:


Here's a simple answer in case you didn't like the more complete answer in the video:

If your bridge length is well matched to the natural pivot length of the cue, then BHE is the most accurate method for fast and/or short shots where swerve is not a significant factor. For longer and slower shots, with a near level cue, FHE will generally be more accurate.

Regards,
Dave

SpiderWebComm said:
After reading the other thread, I'm curious to read others' opinions on which is a more accurate method of applying english. I know there are a lot of ways to apply english: shifting, front-hand english, back-hand english or even a combination of two or all three methods.

Since BHE and shifting are prob the most popular techniques, which do you think is more accurate in the grand scheme of things (all things considered)?

Assume a non-LD shaft for the BHE. So, the question is a leading LD shaft with a shift versus a non-LD shaft and BHE pivoting from the pivot point of that given shaft.

I'm hoping this doesn't become a popularity poll: "I use BHE so I'm choosing that..." I hope those who vote have experimented thoroughly with both methods and can post their thoughts on their findings and why they voted the way they did.

For me, I've played extensively with both over the last few years - but I'll save my comments for the end.

Thanks in advance.
Dave
Click to expand...
 
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
Spidey,

Didn't you see the BHE, FHE, and pivot-length stuff in VEPS-I? I think the video covered everything fairly well, showing that there is no simple answer to your question. The answer depends on your preferred bridge length, the natural pivot length of the cue, the shot distance, the shot speed, the cue elevation. Here's an excerpt from this section of the video:


Here's a simple answer in case you didn't like the more complete answer in the video:

If your bridge length is well matched to the natural pivot length of the cue, then BHE is the most accurate method for fast and/or short shots where swerve is not a significant factor. For longer and slower shots, with a near level cue, FHE will generally be more accurate.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

You misread my original post. I polled people asking what technique they "felt" was more accurate--- LD shaft with a shift or BHE (I only specified pivot point to make it more correct, in "general").

It's not stating either is right, correct, accurate, etc.
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
SpiderWebComm said:
dr_dave said:
Spidey,

Didn't you see the BHE, FHE, and pivot-length stuff in VEPS-I? I think the video covered everything fairly well, showing that there is no simple answer to your question. The answer depends on your preferred bridge length, the natural pivot length of the cue, the shot distance, the shot speed, the cue elevation. Here's an excerpt from this section of the video:

NV B.71 - Back-hand English (BHE), from VEPS II

Here's a simple answer in case you didn't like the more complete answer in the video:

If your bridge length is well matched to the natural pivot length of the cue, then BHE is the most accurate method for fast and/or short shots where swerve is not a significant factor. For longer and slower shots, with a near level cue, FHE will generally be more accurate.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
You misread my original post. I polled people asking what technique they "felt" was more accurate
Click to expand...
OK.

I "feel" that the approaches described in my post and video are "more accurate." :cool:

Regards,
Dave
 
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
OK.

I "feel" that the approaches described in my post and video are "more accurate." :cool:

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Once again...sigh... the original post was directed to those players who have experimented heavily with LD shafts as well as BHE...and polled to which they felt was more accurate (playing-wise).

It's not a pissing contest about what really is more accurate or your videos or your post.

I was merely curious to see what people thought.

Just to help you further plug your video... everyone, make sure you check out Dr. Dave's DVD. There.
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
SpiderWebComm said:
Just to help you further plug your video... everyone, make sure you check out Dr. Dave's DVD. There
Click to expand...
I'm sorry you think the information and free video clip I provided was a "plug." I can see how some people (e.g., you) might perceive it that way. I can also see how other people might think my post was just useful information.

BTW, thanks for the plug, :grin-square:
Dave
 
SpiderWebComm

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
I'm sorry you think the information and free video clip I provided was a "plug." I can see how some people (e.g., you) might perceive it that way. I can also see how other people might think my post was just useful information.

BTW, thanks for the plug, :grin-square:
Dave
Click to expand...

*BUMP* for Dr. Dave's video ;)
 
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