Timing in pool

336Robin

336Robin

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Patrick Johnson said:
"The push" she describes is simply where you stop letting gravity move the cue and start involving your arm. Nothing that defines "push" differently from a normal stroke.

pj
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Yeah that's what a push is. I didn't say she defined it but I think most folks understand what it is. I liked the fact that she gave it a place along the course of the stroke even if its a simple and "not here" but "here" with the visual its great additional instruction. Since a lot of people don't use the widely taught SPF stroke this gives them some additional information to grab onto in order to properly stroke without muscles getting in the way and interfering with a straight stroke.
 
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Kdogster

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short video on timing

I found this 5 minute video on timing, which uses a draw shot to demonstrate proper timing. I think it pulls together a lot of the discussion in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYHoGdQNiE

In summary, it's hitting the cue-ball at the peak of acceleration. The video includes some graphics showing the acceleration curve.

He says not to focus on power, but focus on smooth effortless acceleration. E.g., if you try to swing harder to get a bigger draw shot, you aren't doing it right.

I have less than optimal timing, so it's going to be big boost to my game to figure this out. You watch the pros do these table length draws or move the cue ball 3-4 rails with an easy swing, and it's obvious they have some technique. Time to figure it out.
 
336Robin

336Robin

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Absolutely.

A good way to get into the expression of the draw stroke is to first learn to stop the ball with the least application of stun and increase distance then you find you need a tip of draw to stun at the slowest possible speeds.

That becomes a bridge into a controlled draw shot at all distances of about 1 to 2 inches of draw which is a big deal. How many times have you needed just a few inches of draw on a long shot to get perfect for the next?

From that bridge you graduate in the slow expression of stroke to start getting more distance and find you can raise and lower the cue tip on the cue ball as well to control draw distance.

You would be right to start at one end of the skill and work your way up through it rather than tons of shots and different unrelated shot pressures which teach your stroking arm very little.

Doesn't happen overnight but its learnable.


Kdogster said:
I found this 5 minute video on timing, which uses a draw shot to demonstrate proper timing. I think it pulls together a lot of the discussion in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYHoGdQNiE

In summary, it's hitting the cue-ball at the peak of acceleration. The video includes some graphics showing the acceleration curve.

He says not to focus on power, but focus on smooth effortless acceleration. E.g., if you try to swing harder to get a bigger draw shot, you aren't doing it right.

I have less than optimal timing, so it's going to be big boost to my game to figure this out. You watch the pros do these table length draws or move the cue ball 3-4 rails with an easy swing, and it's obvious they have some technique. Time to figure it out.
Click to expand...
 
K

Kdogster

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336Robin said:
Absolutely.

A good way to get into the expression of the draw stroke is to first learn to stop the ball with the least application of stun and increase distance then you find you need a tip of draw to stun at the slowest possible speeds.

That becomes a bridge into a controlled draw shot at all distances of about 1 to 2 inches of draw which is a big deal. How many times have you needed just a few inches of draw on a long shot to get perfect for the next?

From that bridge you graduate in the slow expression of stroke to start getting more distance and find you can raise and lower the cue tip on the cue ball as well to control draw distance.

You would be right to start at one end of the skill and work your way up through it rather than tons of shots and different unrelated shot pressures which teach your stroking arm very little.

Doesn't happen overnight but its learnable.
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Robin, I think this concept of timing is a different aspect than what you're describing. It's maximizing spin by smoothly ramping up acceleration and hitting the cue ball at the peak of this ramp up.

I mentioned in an earlier post how I was able to get so much more side spin effect with a jab like stroke compared to my normal stroke. By accident, I was discovering that better timing on the cue ball using a jab like stroke was giving me much more spin. What would take 2.5 tips of english with my normal stroke might only require 1 tip of english with a properly timed stroke. Describing it as a jab doesn't sound like a smooth ramp-up of acceleration, but that's kind of how it feels to me.

Anyways, this is kind of an aha- moment for me. Now I just need to master the technique, which is another story.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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Kdogster said:
...better timing on the cue ball using a jab like stroke was giving me much more spin. What would take 2.5 tips of english with my normal stroke might only require 1 tip of english with a properly timed stroke.
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If you hit the same spot on the CB at the same speed and angle, there will be no difference regardless of how you experience the stroke.

The only thing the CB "experiences" when you hit it is where you hit it, how fast and at what angle (cleverly known as Angle, Spot and Speed - ASS). How you accelerate (or anything else about your stroke) is only important to how accurately you can produce those three things.

pj
chgo
 
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K

Kdogster

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Patrick Johnson said:
If you hit the same spot on the CB at the same speed and angle, there will be no difference regardless of how you experience the stroke.

The only thing the CB "experiences" when you hit it is where you hit it, how fast and at what angle (cleverly known as Angle, Spot and Speed - ASS). How you accelerate (or anything else about your stroke) is only important to how accurately you can produce those three things.

pj
chgo
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If you consider the cue tip is depressing into the cue ball and there is a very small amount of time when these 2 bodies are touching, then you want to maximize force during this small amount of time. Force is mass x acceleration (not velocity).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_(physics) (2nd paragraph)

I only took high school physics, so please feel free to poke holes in my explanation.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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Kdogster said:
If you consider the cue tip is depressing into the cue ball and there is a very small amount of time when these 2 bodies are touching, then you want to maximize force during this small amount of time.
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You "maximize force" by stroking harder. No special technique needed - in fact, nothing you can do with your stroke changes what happens during contact.

P.S. Stroking harder doesn't make more spin effect.

pj
chgo
 
336Robin

336Robin

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Kdogster said:
Robin, I think this concept of timing is a different aspect than what you're describing. It's maximizing spin by smoothly ramping up acceleration and hitting the cue ball at the peak of this ramp up.

I mentioned in an earlier post how I was able to get so much more side spin effect with a jab like stroke compared to my normal stroke. By accident, I was discovering that better timing on the cue ball using a jab like stroke was giving me much more spin. What would take 2.5 tips of english with my normal stroke might only require 1 tip of english with a properly timed stroke. Describing it as a jab doesn't sound like a smooth ramp-up of acceleration, but that's kind of how it feels to me.

Anyways, this is kind of an aha- moment for me. Now I just need to master the technique, which is another story.
Click to expand...

As in your video timing with any kind of stroke produces better results and was focusing on the draw stroke addressed in your video. If you understand the better timed stroke the length of the follow through will produce maximum spin.
 
logical

logical

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I just take it to mean tempo, which is often used describing a golf swing...as in logical, your tempo is horrible, you look like you are trying to kill a rattlesnake.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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336Robin said:
As in your video timing with any kind of stroke produces better results and was focusing on the draw stroke addressed in your video. If you understand the better timed stroke the length of the follow through will produce maximum spin.
Click to expand...
Likely true, but to be clear, the length of your follow through doesn't directly affect the amount of spin you get - it's just an indicator that you didn't try to slow your stroke midway.

pj
chgo
 
Bob Jewett

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Kdogster said:
I found this 5 minute video on timing, which uses a draw shot to demonstrate proper timing. I think it pulls together a lot of the discussion in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYHoGdQNiE

...
Click to expand...
That is a very, very good video except for one thing. He confuses velocity and acceleration. He says to hit at peak acceleration but he shows hitting at peak speed. That is totally broken.

I hope he changes the narration. It is a very well-done video other than that.
 
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Kdogster

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Bob Jewett said:
That is a very, very good video except for one thing. He confuses velocity and acceleration. He says to hit at peak acceleration but he shows hitting at peak speed. That is totally broken.

I hope he changes the narration. It is a very well-done video other than that.
Click to expand...

Yes, after watching the video again, I see what you mean. In his graph of speed over time, the max acceleration would be when the slope of the line is greatest, which in his graph happens before max velocity has been reached. So, I guess timing is all about hitting the CB at max velocity. I thought it might be something related to impulse and some small amount of time where cue tip and CB are touching during impact.

In any event, I appreciate the importance of timing the impact at max velocity. It allows you to get the most spin for whatever speed you hit the shot. If you don't need to hammer shots or use more extreme tip placement and you still get the necessary cue ball spin, then the pockets play bigger, you have less deflection for side spin, less miscues, more accuracy, and the CB can be moved more easily around the rails.

This morning, I did some experimentation with timing on the draw shot. What I noticed is that an easy stroke is the way to go. It seems counter-intuitive, because your brain is telling you to stroke super hard, but the best results come from just an easy stroke. It's probably because accuracy of tip placement goes haywire and you hit higher than desired, or you're mis-timing the impact and hitting the CB after you quit accelerating like he shows in the video. I also notice if you increase the bridge length/backswing, you get even more draw with the same easy stroke, since there is more time to reach higher velocity.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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Kdogster said:
... This morning, I did some experimentation with timing on the draw shot. What I noticed is that an easy stroke is the way to go. It seems counter-intuitive, because your brain is telling you to stroke super hard, but the best results come from just an easy stroke. ...
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I think most good players learn timing -- hitting at peak speed, and certainly not after peak speed -- simply by playing and noticing subconsciously the shots where they get a great result with an easy stroke and minimum effort. I think a lot of players run into problems when they let their mind get in the way of learning. On the other hand, if you know the reasons/explanations of timing, it doesn't necessarily hurt, but your mind has to let your arm learn.

I think draw shots are the best shots to learn timing with because you have to hit the ball a little harder and the draw won't be there if your timing fails, as was pointed out in the video. You also need good tip placement on the cue ball which most players struggle with.
 
336Robin

336Robin

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Patrick Johnson said:
Likely true, but to be clear, the length of your follow through doesn't directly affect the amount of spin you get - it's just an indicator that you didn't try to slow your stroke midway.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

That's probably true but I've been able to get various amounts of draw that way. It seems the stroke expression "when less expression gets less draw distance" and "when more expression gets more draw distance" at the same distance to the cue ball because the follow through is either held back in part or not. The physics after the cue ball leaves the cue has it on its own but a jab stroke doesn't suit me. Not sure if I've ever seen someone play that way or not.

 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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Bob Jewett said:
... the draw won't be there if your timing fails, as was pointed out in the video. You also need good tip placement on the cue ball which most players struggle with.
Click to expand...
In my experience tip placement is almost always at least part of the problem - looking at the CB last while practicing draw shots is an eye opener.

pj
chgo
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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slach said:
... I like using the QMD3 stroke trainer (cue-md.com) to check up on my stroke, the velocity chart from the software will show you if you're accelerating and how much.
Click to expand...
Here is an annotated diagram of the timing of a stroke. This is a little idealized but this has all been measured.

The horizontal axis is time including the backstroke, the pause, and the forward stroke. The vertical axis is how fast the stick is moving with backwards motion in red (negative) and forward motion in blue (positive).

The acceleration is the slope of the speed/time curve.

From tip contact (near peak velocity for this example stroke) to the ball leaving the tip is about 0.001 second. The stick speed is cut in half during that time. The stick speed rises after that due to the hand "winding up" and pushing on the stick as the continues to move forward at the peak stick speed.

The pause for this stroke has both the speed and the acceleration going to zero at the end of the backstroke. The velocity is zero obviously enough. The acceleration is zero because the slope of the velocity is also zero at the end of the backstroke. The pause is "brief" because the zero-zero condition has zero duration -- the stick is motionless at the back of the backstroke only for an instant.

CropperCapture[140].jpg
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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A side note about this revealing graph - it shows clearly that "accelerating through the CB" is a myth (although maybe a helpful visualization).

pj
chgo

decelerating.jpg
 
K

Kdogster

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Bob Jewett said:
Here is an annotated diagram of the timing of a stroke. This is a little idealized but this has all been measured.

The horizontal axis is time including the backstroke, the pause, and the forward stroke. The vertical axis is how fast the stick is moving with backwards motion in red (negative) and forward motion in blue (positive).

The acceleration is the slope of the speed/time curve.

From tip contact (near peak velocity for this example stroke) to the ball leaving the tip is about 0.001 second. The stick speed is cut in half during that time. The stick speed rises after that due to the hand "winding up" and pushing on the stick as the continues to move forward at the peak stick speed.

The pause for this stroke has both the speed and the acceleration going to zero at the end of the backstroke. The velocity is zero obviously enough. The acceleration is zero because the slope of the velocity is also zero at the end of the backstroke. The pause is "brief" because the zero-zero condition has zero duration -- the stick is motionless at the back of the backstroke only for an instant.

View attachment 559801
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Nice graph! Thanks for sharing Bob.

Just curious, if you got that graph from the QMD3 stroke trainer or some other tool? Also, did you happen to notice examples of bad timing, when the stick was decelerating or still accelerating on impact?
 
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