Rack manipulation - a question.

inside_english

inside_english

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently watched two pros gambling at 10-ball. Their names are not relevant. One of them began complaining because the other was feathering the one ball with his hand after he removed the rack from the table.

My question is this:

What's the harm? It seems to me that the player is ensuring the head ball is frozen against the other two balls, but one of the players claimed this was illegal rack manipulation. He also claimed that the player was "turning the balls" to his favor by doing this, which I did not understand. I read somewhere that you can turn the balls so their numbers touch which makes a slight difference, but even then, so what?

What am I missing?
 
WildWing

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
There is nothing wrong with it, as long as the player racking is making sure that the one ball is frozen to the two others.

But, you're dealing with pool players here, who have more slight of hand and excuses than magicians and carnies. If the racking player is slightly juggling the one ball away from the other two, there is a problem.

If the latter, not sure of the solution, but as usual, I think strangulation is best. Same goes for players with other sharking moves, like unscrewing their cue while you have three balls left on the table, or going for the rack while you're getting down on the nine, and that sort of thing. Strangulation...

All the best,
WW
 
TSW

TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rack your own or not?

If it's not, the opponent should be able to check the rack and stop any funny business. If it's rack your own, then I don't see the harm.

Supposedly the numbers wear down slightly more slowly than the rest of the ball, so if you have worn balls, aligning the numbers should make it easier to get them to freeze. But you can do that with the rack on the table also.

Most likely the one ball was not quite frozen so he was trying to feather it to get it to freeze. I don't see a problem with that.
 
inside_english

inside_english

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
TSW said:
Rack your own or not?

If it's not, the opponent should be able to check the rack and stop any funny business. If it's rack your own, then I don't see the harm.

Supposedly the numbers wear down slightly more slowly than the rest of the ball, so if you have worn balls, aligning the numbers should make it easier to get them to freeze. But you can do that with the rack on the table also.

Most likely the one ball was not quite frozen so he was trying to feather it to get it to freeze. I don't see a problem with that.
Click to expand...

It was rack-your-own, which made the complaint more confusing. Why would a player intentionally un-freeze the head ball from the rest of the pack?
 
Kid Dynomite

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
inside_english said:
I recently watched two pros gambling at 10-ball. Their names are not relevant. One of them began complaining because the other was feathering the one ball with his hand after he removed the rack from the table.

My question is this:

What's the harm? It seems to me that the player is ensuring the head ball is frozen against the other two balls, but one of the players claimed this was illegal rack manipulation. He also claimed that the player was "turning the balls" to his favor by doing this, which I did not understand. I read somewhere that you can turn the balls so their numbers touch which makes a slight difference, but even then, so what?

What am I missing?
Click to expand...
I want to help you here! This is the most detailed explanation of what is the REAL issue.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=386922

Lots of good reading material. Once you know, it will turn you away from rotation games. Just like Neo and the pill offered by morpheus. There is no turning back! Welcome to Alice in wonderland!

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
WildWing

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
inside_english said:
It was rack-your-own, which made the complaint more confusing. Why would a player intentionally un-freeze the head ball from the rest of the pack?
Click to expand...

If you rack your own, you're correct, you wouldn't un-freeze the head ball. But, you might do some other crafty things. Such as, mis-aligning the rack just a bit to make sure the wing ball goes in the corner pocket, or the one ball goes in the side.

All the best
WW
 
F

flyrv9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What about all the ball feathering, poking and prodding of balls when people use the magic rack?
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
flyrv9 said:
What about all the ball feathering, poking and prodding of balls when people use the magic rack?
Click to expand...
Usually they are trying to get all the balls frozen, especially if they are playing nine ball. I think that's OK. If someone could come up with a template rack design that guaranteed all balls touching without feathering, it would be a lot better.
 
inside_english

inside_english

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Kid Dynomite said:
I want to help you here! This is the most detailed explanation of what is the REAL issue.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=386922

Lots of good reading material. Once you know, it will turn you away from rotation games. Just like Neo and the pill offered by morpheus. There is no turning back! Welcome to Alice in wonderland!

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Had no idea, thanks Mike.
 
Black-Balled

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
Usually they are trying to get all the balls frozen, especially if they are playing nine ball. I think that's OK. If someone could come up with a template rack design that guaranteed all balls touching without feathering, it would be a lot better.
Click to expand...

I go ylu one better and say it would be...perfect.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
flyrv9 said:
What about all the ball feathering, poking and prodding of balls when people use the magic rack?
Click to expand...

That's only to slot the balls into the right positions, there can be a gap in places till you push them against each other, but the difference is that the slots they sit in prevents them from being moved apart when they are tight. When you move the 1 ball in, you are creating a "loaded" rack, which means the 1 ball is not resting but pushing on the rack like it does in the template racks, and there is also a chance the wing balls will move out just a tiny bit to make them easier to make.

I think there should be a rule that once the rack is removed, you can not touch the rack unless to re-rack it with that rack.
 
E

Ekojasiloop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's a joke, if someone put me in charge, which thank god they don't, the first rule I would put in bold writing in the universal rule book that everyone plays by, is that you must sit down and shut mouth when the guy is racking. Pain of losing the game if u break that rule. We need quite a few rules like this but we'll never get them for some reason.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Ekojasiloop said:
It's a joke, if someone put me in charge, which thank god they don't, the first rule I would put in bold writing in the universal rule book that everyone plays by, is that you must sit down and shut mouth when the guy is racking. Pain of losing the game if u break that rule. We need quite a few rules like this but we'll never get them for some reason.
Click to expand...

At the US Open 9-Ball last year, Jason Shaw did a demo before the tournament of how a little feathering could make the wing ball dead even though the 9 was on the spot. One of Ralf Souquet's opponents knew the trick and after the first dead wing ball Ralf asked him please not to cheat any more and he stopped.

In another match, one player was deadening the wing ball while the other was pattern racking. Both are unsportsmanlike conduct and neither complained about the other.
 
Black-Balled

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The whole thing follows the prisoner's dilemma paradox.

If we both believe the other isnt manipulating and we are safe by also not doing so, there is no cheating.

If both believe the other is cheating and we need to match that advantage, both maniplulate.

If either party manipulates and the other doesnt, the one not manipulating is at a disadvantage- getting cheated.

So, the only way to keep it honest is through honesty and trust of both parties.

It is pool: how do you think it is going to go?
 
alstl

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
inside_english said:
I recently watched two pros gambling at 10-ball. Their names are not relevant. One of them began complaining because the other was feathering the one ball with his hand after he removed the rack from the table.

My question is this:

What's the harm? It seems to me that the player is ensuring the head ball is frozen against the other two balls, but one of the players claimed this was illegal rack manipulation. He also claimed that the player was "turning the balls" to his favor by doing this, which I did not understand. I read somewhere that you can turn the balls so their numbers touch which makes a slight difference, but even then, so what?

What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Was he Dutch?
 
Paul Schofield

Paul Schofield

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
At the US Open 9-Ball last year, Jason Shaw did a demo before the tournament of how a little feathering could make the wing ball dead even though the 9 was on the spot. One of Ralf Souquet's opponents knew the trick and after the first dead wing ball Ralf asked him please not to cheat any more and he stopped.

In another match, one player was deadening the wing ball while the other was pattern racking. Both are unsportsmanlike conduct and neither complained about the other.
Click to expand...

Here we are again year after year. My Spring Invitational had Hatch, Dechaine, Deuel, just to name a few. No refs and no templates. There was not even a hint of a problem. I like what I do. Fixed.
 
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