Another newbie question. (expectations)

Gio Sr. · Jul 24, 2012

I have been shooting a couple of years and I'm 62. I just started to get serious and I'm making good progress. (14.1)

The question is for the "normal" decent shooters that have high runs in the 40s and 50s. How many do you run in a normal game in a league game or just with someone at a pool hall?

I realize that I will never become great but I think I can get to run 40-50 (while I'm awake):grin: someday.

ForumGhost516 · Jul 24, 2012

My high run in a league match this season was i believe a 32 against a pretty good player. It was a big run in a match that came when i definitely needed it.

I was handicapping people by so much it was scary lol.

My average run in a game isn't great its usually in the mid to high 20's but in practice i can and do go much higher, maybe its a pressure or nerves thing lol.

Gio Sr. · Jul 24, 2012

ForumGhost516 said:
My high run in a league match this season was i believe a 32 against a pretty good player. It was a big run in a match that came when i definitely needed it.

I was handicapping people by so much it was scary lol.

My average run in a game isn't great its usually in the mid to high 20's but in practice i can and do go much higher, maybe its a pressure or nerves thing lol.

Thanks FG,

I guess you're the only one honest enough to share that info :grin:

In my mind practice doesn't count, less pressure, no one watching, no money innvolved :wink:

Pushout · Jul 24, 2012

Gio Sr. said:
I have been shooting a couple of years and I'm 62. I just started to get serious and I'm making good progress. (14.1)

The question is for the "normal" decent shooters that have high runs in the 40s and 50s. How many do you run in a normal game in a league game or just with someone at a pool hall?

I realize that I will never become great but I think I can get to run 40-50 (while I'm awake):grin: someday.

In my experience it's seldom near their high run. I haven't played much Straight pool against an opponent in a good many years except for one foray against AZer Ted Kaufman a few months back. I've run 30s in practice but think I may have run a rack or so against Ted. Neither one of us shot lights out

I tend to think it can vary a lot depending on what's at stake and how often you compete, either in organized competition or money or pastime games.

PGHteacher · Jul 24, 2012

Whew that’s a tough question; it’s situational; 2 racks is a good run for me a very good run. Although I love 14.1 and believe it to be the quintessential game I am not very good at it. I have a belief that (for me and my location) that it is best to play the highest % shot that will allow you to win the game not the highest run; therefore I don’t “test” this as often as I should. I suck at 14.1 but it is the game that will teach you the most. Others will bash me for this (and I am ready for that) but a 17 ball run with a hard to answer safe, another 23 ball run and another difficult to answer safe with a 10 ball run is just as good as a 50 ball run (you got 50 balls) the tough part is the “difficult to answer” safe, this takes more experience and knowledge than you might think.

Pool players have a good handle on (especially the confident, no fear younger ones) to lock in what “works on that table” or “what works in that situation” to an uncanny degree.

You’re probably not going to become a world beater at 62 and I probably am not either at 47. So does it really matter whether your high run is 25, 30, 35, 45, 55 or 65? Well not really (I am sure I will get the PFT! From this post).

I am sure of a couple of things:

1. If I practiced my high run a couple of times a week I would have a “high run” that is higher than it is now.
2. If I did this it would be well under 100 balls.

My high run is 46; the only reason I know that is because I used to play a game to 500 with a friend of mine and he once said “good run fish (he calls me that because my last name is Fischer) you’re on a 46 ball run” and I missed the next ball.

You may say isn’t one a means to win more games? Well I disagree especially if we are talking about the average strong player. My opinion is that if the table after the break is best answered by the run; do that as many times as the break gives you that opportunity. But to get caught up in “what’s my highest run as compared to others is IMHO a thing that you should not be concentrating on; especially right now.

Gio Sr. · Jul 24, 2012

PGHteacher said:
Whew that’s a tough question; it’s situational; 2 racks is a good run for me a very good run. Although I love 14.1 and believe it to be the quintessential game I am not very good at it. I have a belief that (for me and my location) that it is best to play the highest % shot that will allow you to win the game not the highest run; therefore I don’t “test” this as often as I should. I suck at 14.1 but it is the game that will teach you the most. Others will bash me for this (and I am ready for that) but a 17 ball run with a hard to answer safe, another 23 ball run and another difficult to answer safe with a 10 ball run is just as good as a 50 ball run (you got 50 balls) the tough part is the “difficult to answer” safe, this takes more experience and knowledge than you might think.

Pool players have a good handle on (especially the confident, no fear younger ones) to lock in what “works on that table” or “what works in that situation” to an uncanny degree.

You’re probably not going to become a world beater at 62 and I probably am not either at 47. So does it really matter whether your high run is 25, 30, 35, 45, 55 or 65? Well not really (I am sure I will get the PFT! From this post).

I am sure of a couple of things:

1. If I practiced my high run a couple of times a week I would have a “high run” that is higher than it is now.
2. If I did this it would be well under 100 balls.

My high run is 46; the only reason I know that is because I used to play a game to 500 with a friend of mine and he once said “good run fish (he calls me that because my last name is Fischer) you’re on a 46 ball run” and I missed the next ball.

You may say isn’t one a means to win more games? Well I disagree especially if we are talking about the average strong player. My opinion is that if the table after the break is best answered by the run; do that as many times as the break gives you that opportunity. But to get caught up in “what’s my highest run as compared to others is IMHO a thing that you should not be concentrating on; especially right now.

Great answer.

I understand what you're getting at. I have a long way to go before I hit any of the numbers I mentioned. I just got curious because I see guys with their high run listed in the signature.

I do understand the value of a good safe. The guys I play with are pretty good , so it has helped me work on my safes. It is funny when I play partners and I get stuck with this mid 80 year old guy following me. He used to be a tough competator in his day. Anyway I safe him and I think I got him and he leans over the pack, I get a sinking feeling in my stomack because I know what is going to happen next. He just sees stuff that none of the other guys do and bam.

michael4 · Jul 24, 2012

First of all I'm not a great player by any means, but here are my thoughts on your question, as I understand it.

I would guess that players with a "high run" of say 40-50 would probably be happy to get a run of half that in a tournament setting. By the same tokin, if I see a guy run 20 in a tourny, I would assume his high run is at least double that.

You have to remember that "high run" is lifetime high run, on their best day and best table. It could have happened 20 years ago.

My other thought mirrors what was mentioned above, some people concentrate their practice on "high runs", other dont. I dont think you could say someone with a high run of say 60 is always better than the guy with a high of 30, there are just too many variables. (of course there is a strong correlation between high run and skill)

measureman · Jul 24, 2012

I have a high run of 101 in practice but I shot shots that I would have never shot in competition because it did not matter if I missed.
If you can pop a 40 or 50 once in a while then you are a pretty good 14.1 player.
Another way to play is that if you think you can out safe your opponent then every time you are at the table try to sink all the possible break balls and start the next rack by playing safe. If you happen to miss and all the good break balls are gone then you have a chance that your opponent will not continue a run. I hope I explained that right. It's like playing 14.0.

dmgwalsh · Jul 25, 2012

Gio Sr. said:
I have been shooting a couple of years and I'm 62. I just started to get serious and I'm making good progress. (14.1)

The question is for the "normal" decent shooters that have high runs in the 40s and 50s. How many do you run in a normal game in a league game or just with someone at a pool hall?

I realize that I will never become great but I think I can get to run 40-50 (while I'm awake):grin: someday.

Lou: Usually, lately, in a league game or a game at the pool hall, I get into the twenties once or twice in a game to 100. Sometimes more. There was a stretch a few years ago where I was getting into the 40s often in league.

My high run of 57 was in practice and I ran a 55 in practice. My 56 came in a tournament and I had a 55 and a 49 in league play.

It seems like I am more apt to have a good run in playing than in practice. It may be because more opportunities. When practicing, I do other things mostly rather than try runs.

PGHteacher · Jul 25, 2012

Gio Sr. said:
It is funny when I play partners and I get stuck with this mid 80 year old guy following me. He used to be a tough competator in his day. Anyway I safe him and I think I got him and he leans over the pack, I get a sinking feeling in my stomack because I know what is going to happen next. He just sees stuff that none of the other guys do and bam.

Cluster analysis is a HUGE part of 14.1; if you train yourself to look for “dead balls out of the pack” every time you will be doing this to. This is said about me all the time “you read that so well”. To me it is just that I look at it every time, not just when I think/suspect a ball might be dead in the 2 foot pockets or 4 closest pockets but rather the odds of any ball going anywhere and what the odds are of that; and if the odds are high enough shoot it.

Gio Sr. · Jul 25, 2012

dmgwalsh said:
Lou: Usually, lately, in a league game or a game at the pool hall, I get into the twenties once or twice in a game to 100. Sometimes more. There was a stretch a few years ago where I was getting into the 40s often in league.

My high run of 57 was in practice and I ran a 55 in practice. My 56 came in a tournament and I had a 55 and a 49 in league play.

It seems like I am more apt to have a good run in playing than in practice. It may be because more opportunities. When practicing, I do other things mostly rather than try runs.

Interesting Dennis, You seem like a pretty solid player on those streaming matches I have been seeing. I have enjoyed watching them.

Gio Sr. · Jul 25, 2012

PGHteacher said:
Cluster analysis is a HUGE part of 14.1; if you train yourself to look for “dead balls out of the pack” every time you will be doing this to. This is said about me all the time “you read that so well”. To me it is just that I look at it every time, not just when I think/suspect a ball might be dead in the 2 foot pockets or 4 closest pockets but rather the odds of any ball going anywhere and what the odds are of that; and if the odds are high enough shoot it.

Thanks John. I have been looking and seeing, but I just don't have the confidence to go for it when I'm playing. It will come. Are there training books that cover cluster analysis or do you just get it from experience?

Gio Sr. · Jul 25, 2012

Thanks to everyone for your comments it helps me sort out what is important for now.

PGHteacher · Jul 25, 2012

Gio Sr. said:
Thanks John. I have been looking and seeing, but I just don't have the confidence to go for it when I'm playing. It will come. Are there training books that cover cluster analysis or do you just get it from experience?

Trust is the 1st part of this meaning trust in what you are seeing you have to trust that a ball frozen to another is going to go straight along the tangent line every time, you have to trust that a frozen ball is going to be pushed in the same direction as the CB, you have to trust that that ball is going to go off that other ball and into the pocket.

So 1st you have to learn how the physics REALLY work (BTW you would not believe the category of player that does not know, some of these guys that don’t know are outstanding pool players) Then you have to look for these shots; then you have to trust in what you have seen. Here are a few “tips” that might help.

1. Bury your nose in the rack when you are examining it; the difference between frozen and .1mm can make a difference.
2. Look at the potential cluster shot from both sides; in other words from the OB to the pocket and from the pocket to the OB. You will be amazed at how often it looks like it will go from one side and not the other.
3. Look at all of the balls orientations; not all balls need to go straight in. If you see a ball that goes into another ball check to see if that goes into a pocket.
4. Don’t discount banks, the margin of error for a bank shot is usually higher (if only slightly) when you have it part of a cluster shot (that’s good it means you can make a bigger error and still have the ball go in) why? Because the ball is hitting another ball into another ball; so the human error factor is reduced, If you missed it probably wasn’t your technique it was probably you initial analysis.
5. It may take several looks at several different angles to determine how the force will be transmitted through the rack. If another ball knocks your intended OB out of the path going toward the pocket this was your mistake 99% of the time; you didn’t read how force is being transmitted through the rack properly.

Those are the grass roots I don’t know if that is too simple of too complicated or just right for you because I don’t know your background. Like anything there is no substitute for experience with these shots. If you have even an inkling that you do not understand some of the underlying physics; if you are ever unsure about why a ball reacted a certain way this is the 1st problem that you should address. I suggest Byrns Standard Book of Pool & Billiards; there is a good section on cluster analysis in there also.

Gio Sr. · Jul 25, 2012

PGHteacher said:
Trust is the 1st part of this meaning trust in what you are seeing you have to trust that a ball frozen to another is going to go straight along the tangent line every time, you have to trust that a frozen ball is going to be pushed in the same direction as the CB, you have to trust that that ball is going to go off that other ball and into the pocket.

So 1st you have to learn how the physics REALLY work (BTW you would not believe the category of player that does not know, some of these guys that don’t know are outstanding pool players) Then you have to look for these shots; then you have to trust in what you have seen. Here are a few “tips” that might help.

1. Bury your nose in the rack when you are examining it; the difference between frozen and .1mm can make a difference.
2. Look at the potential cluster shot from both sides; in other words from the OB to the pocket and from the pocket to the OB. You will be amazed at how often it looks like it will go from one side and not the other.
3. Look at all of the balls orientations; not all balls need to go straight in. If you see a ball that goes into another ball check to see if that goes into a pocket.
4. Don’t discount banks, the margin of error for a bank shot is usually higher (if only slightly) when you have it part of a cluster shot (that’s good it means you can make a bigger error and still have the ball go in) why? Because the ball is hitting another ball into another ball; so the human error factor is reduced, If you missed it probably wasn’t your technique it was probably you initial analysis.
5. It may take several looks at several different angles to determine how the force will be transmitted through the rack. If another ball knocks your intended OB out of the path going toward the pocket this was your mistake 99% of the time; you didn’t read how force is being transmitted through the rack properly.

Those are the grass roots I don’t know if that is too simple of too complicated or just right for you because I don’t know your background. Like anything there is no substitute for experience with these shots. If you have even an inkling that you do not understand some of the underlying physics; if you are ever unsure about why a ball reacted a certain way this is the 1st problem that you should address. I suggest Byrns Standard Book of Pool & Billiards; there is a good section on cluster analysis in there also.

John

I get a lot of what you have there. I will work on it. I shoot 14.1 most days at the clubhouse. We have 5 tables and we mostly play teams. I play one guy one on one when he talks me into it. Sometimes I do ok sometimes he kills me. I will be watching for the oportunities.

I will print this as a reminder and look into that book. I just stumbled across a Dr. Daves whole set for cheep in our classifieds. It just came in todays mail.

Thanks

PGHteacher · Jul 25, 2012

Gio Sr. said:
John

I get a lot of what you have there. I will work on it. I shoot 14.1 most days at the clubhouse. We have 5 tables and we mostly play teams. I play one guy one on one when he talks me into it. Sometimes I do ok sometimes he kills me. I will be watching for the oportunities.

I will print this as a reminder and look into that book. I just stumbled across a Dr. Daves whole set for cheep in our classifieds. It just came in todays mail.

Thanks

You're welcome, need anything else just PM or post me.

measureman · Jul 25, 2012

Gio Sr. said:
I have been shooting a couple of years and I'm 62. I just started to get serious and I'm making good progress. (14.1)

The question is for the "normal" decent shooters that have high runs in the 40s and 50s. How many do you run in a normal game in a league game or just with someone at a pool hall?

I realize that I will never become great but I think I can get to run 40-50 (while I'm awake):grin: someday.

I just noticed you are in Ocean County NJ. If you want to really improve your game look up Neptune Joe Frady and take some lessons if he is still doing that. If you are not familiar with Joe he was one of the best there was at one time.

Paul Dayton · Jul 25, 2012

One point I'd like to make as to how to play better or well. When you're clearing the table of the loose balls, you always have to look at shots other than the easy or obvious ones because they might be the only way you'll later be able to play position to break clusters or bump break shots.

I used to play decently and now just play once a week in a handicapped straight pool league and after 7 years, the only people showing real improvement are the ones who think before shooting. It's hard learning how to play if there aren't accomplished players in your room who either play enough for you to watch or who will play with you and allow you to rack balls as they run them.

If I get into the 30's today it is a good run for me. My biggest problem is concentration. I forget to actually aim and/or shoot where I aimed at a point.

dmgwalsh · Jul 26, 2012

Those tips about cluster analysis are good. That is something I do not do often enough. Ray Martin's book on 99 shots has a lot of good stuff on analyzing the cluster.

As for all around straight pool, Phil Capelle's Play your best straight pool covers everything.

Gio Sr. · Jul 26, 2012

measureman said:
I just noticed you are in Ocean County NJ. If you want to really improve your game look up Neptune Joe Frady and take some lessons if he is still doing that. If you are not familiar with Joe he was one of the best there was at one time.

I will see if I can find out where he plays or hangs out. I don't go to pool halls because I don't have to. I play for free at the clubhouse.

Funny thing happened the first time I went to a local pool hall. Lots of gambling goes on there. I felt like a hot chick in a room full oc NYC constuction workers. :grin: Everyone wanted to get in my pants. :grin:

Another newbie question. (expectations)

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