Napa national payout issue

zpele · Jun 20, 2014

I recently went to the nationals for napa and after crunching some numbers I am concerned. In my bracket (b 9ball) first place only got about $550. I know going into It that there were at least 100 players. Each player paid $40 plus a greens fee to enter. The math doesn't work out and it appears that not all the money was paid back out to the players. Not only did the league not structure the payouts correctly (percentage wise it was way off with second place getting only $50 less than first) but this was a national event.

Every year the league is growing with more players and more teams but the payouts are getting smaller and although I don't want to I am beginning to wonder if something fishy is going on. The people that run the tournament are all very nice so I don't want to question them without due cause but i don't think some transparency on what happened to the payouts would be out of the question.

The other thing that bugs me is that this is a national event for a league that has grown significantly and it appears that the league is not giving back to the players by way of added funds to the prize pool.

I want to stress that this is coming from someone who had a fun time at nationals even with all the problems and I don't really want to bad mouth anyone but I do want to see this tournament get better and without growth in line with the league itself I don't see any reason to come next year.

Nullus · Jun 20, 2014

The payout was equivalent to entry fees. The difference is no added money. Instead of the standard 1st place doubles up 2nd place that you see in most tournament formats whereupon the tiered payouts begin with second place and go down....it was explained to me that they kept 1st place money below $600 because the LO that was in charge of setting payouts thought it would be in the best interests of the winner to not have to pay taxes on their winnings. So basically, instead of winning $1000 and paying 250-300 in taxes while taking home $700 plus still, the winner only got $550. That was in your bracket. It was worse in most of the rest of our brackets with 'A' and 'GM' only paying around $500 to the winner. It makes no sense. It's standard tournament payout procedure that first doubles up second, and the rest of the payout is stepped down to the last place payout which typically gets their entry fee back. Usually 25% of the field cashes. They paid so much to 2nd-5/6th, that first got shafted in each and every single bracket and classification. I'm not sure why one LO not wanting to pay taxes dictated a change in the normal payout procedures tournaments have used for well, ever, but it did. They seemed very disinterested to discuss it.

I love the NAPA format and wish Tony and the rest complete success going forward, but I sure hope he hires someone to come in and run it right next year. Seems letting a bunch of LO's with amateur level experience at running tournaments run things this year was a step backwards from last year. I've convinced several friends to join up in the past year, but I'm going to take a wait and see approach from here on out to see how things are done. The only true top players to show up this year for the tournaments were Alex, Julio and Tommy. Most of the elite players in NAPA don't even make the trip to Nationals and lowering payouts for the winners isn't the answer to getting them to come, for what it's worth. A switch to a proper Nationals venue like Atlantic City or Vegas would definitely help. Players like the NAPA format but they have no end game to look forward to that compares to other top leagues at present. Many folks are tired of the sandbagging in other leagues and the scoring formats, etc...but those leagues offer Vegas, and until NAPA competes with that for their year end tournament AND runs it right, with set payout percentages and no last minute changes to the tournament structuring, they will probably never catch up. It's too bad, they have a better system, just a lack of professional procedure. It's an easy fix, just one that needs to be made.

lorider · Jun 20, 2014

sad to hear the number of players ...and the pay outs are less than last year.

even with the lower pay outs i wish i could have made it just for the experience. i really enjoyed the nationals the 2 previous years.

in my area we have quite a few players ....such as me that play both apa and napa.

due to the conflicting schedule with our apa ltc's most did not go to atlanta. i believe only 2 people from my area went. i believe about 20 went last year.

i would like to see them move their nationals to vegas also. .... and rechedule it so as not to interfere with apa ltc's.

watchez · Jun 20, 2014

Just so I understand -

You traveled to Atlanta,
paid a $40 entry fee plus green fee
there were 100 players
and if you were the best player, first place was a whopping $500

rookiepsu · Jun 20, 2014

Just for clarity, the greens fee was $40. The entry fee/administration fee was $5. It was their way of trying to make it look like your greens fee was going towards what a greens fee is supposed to go towards, rather than the complete funding of the player prize pool.

thintowin · Jun 20, 2014

if ordinary folk utilized these business practices we would find ourselves in the hoosegow for fraud. sad ...

eightandout · Jun 20, 2014

Our weekly tournament in Hayseed USA pays out more than that!

lorider · Jun 20, 2014

rookiepsu said:
Just for clarity, the greens fee was $40. The entry fee/administration fee was $5. It was their way of trying to make it look like your greens fee was going towards what a greens fee is supposed to go towards, rather than the complete funding of the player prize pool.

not trying to justify the low payout...which btw i think sucked. if you think the 40.00 green fee is completely funding the prize money then who is paying for the tables ? they are not supplied for free.

Mark Griffin · Jun 20, 2014

Below is a quote from an earlier post. Just to let everyone know - this information is in error and is misleading.

The IRS expects a tax form filled out for a CUMULATIVE total over $600.00. This is a calendar year running total. If you win $550 in one event and $100 in another, you are responsible for reporting your income and NAPA (or any of the other leagues) is responsible for reporting the appropriate information to the IRS.

Using a one time pay limit of $600 is wrong and causes misinformation to everyone.

I just wanted to let everyone know the proper method is that is required by LAW. Every year somebody wants to challenge us on the way we get everyone to sign a W-9 (I think that is the proper form number) if they cash any amount. It is because it is a running total for an entire calendar year.

Their tournament directors should have known better.

All this does is cause the legitimate operations more hassle. I am not trying to discredit NAPA. I favor all pool playing. But when their behavior affects the pool players and other events, I think everyone should have more facts. If CSI advertised a $125,000 event and paid out a lot less, we would be crucified!

Quote:
it was explained to me that they kept 1st place money below $600 because the LO that was in charge of setting payouts thought it would be in the best interests of the winner to not have to pay taxes on their winnings. So basically, instead of winning $1000 and paying 250-300 in taxes while taking home $700 plus still, the winner only got $550. End Quote

Mark Griffin, CEO
BCA Pool League/ CSI

GoBilliards · Jun 20, 2014

watchez said:
Just so I understand -

You traveled to Atlanta,
paid a $40 entry fee plus green fee
there were 100 players
and if you were the best player, first place was a whopping $500

LOL. Bingo, we have a winner. And the excuses were The hotel gouged them for way more than originally expected. The flyer says $125,000.00 in payouts with an astrick.........at the bottom of the page it says "NAPA reserves the right to change the payout at any time for any reason"

btown · Jun 20, 2014

Them pay outs are horrible. If I did get on a league it would be BCA. Seems like the most legitimate and also the most prestigious.

If they had a league that only lasted 1-3 weeks I would so be in it

GoBilliards · Jun 20, 2014

It's not really NAPA's fault. They just don't get it. They are trying to learn but it seems they are going backwards. I played in 2012 in Nashville. I got 5th in the masters 8ball. After a two day tournament was over, they still "Didn't know" what it paid. We waited until the next day to find out how much we won. I got $189.00 for 5th. cost roughly $1000.00 for the trip. After getting my check for $189 that no one would cash, I lost interest in 9ball and 10ball.

Pool players won't put up with this type of stuff. I'm shocked that anyone, much less the owners of a league like this, doesn't get this.

GoBilliards · Jun 20, 2014

The Tournament was funded by raking $.50 per player per match for every league match in the nation. The $40.00 was to pay for the tables rent and the $5.00 was for admin.

Rooms were $100.00 parking was $25/Day and it's $100 fine if you lose your plastic credit card style room key. NAPA Members got half price parking!!!!! so it was $12.50/day.

LNCPA · Jun 20, 2014

Mark Griffin said:
Below is a quote from an earlier post. Just to let everyone know - this information is in error and is misleading.

The IRS expects a tax form filled out for a CUMULATIVE total over $600.00. This is a calendar year running total. If you win $550 in one event and $100 in another, you are responsible for reporting your income and NAPA (or any of the other leagues) is responsible for reporting the appropriate information to the IRS.

Using a one time pay limit of $600 is wrong and causes misinformation to everyone.

I just wanted to let everyone know the proper method is that is required by LAW. Every year somebody wants to challenge us on the way we get everyone to sign a W-9 (I think that is the proper form number) if they cash any amount. It is because it is a running total for an entire calendar year.

Their tournament directors should have known better.

All this does is cause the legitimate operations more hassle. I am not trying to discredit NAPA. I favor all pool playing. But when their behavior affects the pool players and other events, I think everyone should have more facts. If CSI advertised a $125,000 event and paid out a lot less, we would be crucified!

Quote:
it was explained to me that they kept 1st place money below $600 because the LO that was in charge of setting payouts thought it would be in the best interests of the winner to not have to pay taxes on their winnings. So basically, instead of winning $1000 and paying 250-300 in taxes while taking home $700 plus still, the winner only got $550. End Quote

Mark Griffin, CEO
BCA Pool League/ CSI

Mark is correct. In addition to that if you win in excess of $600 playing in leagues/tournaments you can deduct the expenses (i.e. entry fees, travel, meals) from the winnings and only pay tax on what the net profit is after deductions.

I believe the guys running NAPA mean well but I don't think they have gotten good advice on a lot of these matters.

A lot of promoters of billiard events (both at the Pro and Amateur levels) have miscalculated what their expenses were going to be or over-estimated what sponsorship funds were coming in and had a problem with payouts. I love the game but you're going to play at amateur events don't expect the money to change your life any.

GoBilliards · Jun 20, 2014

LNCPA said:
Mark is correct. In addition to that if you win in excess of $600 playing in leagues/tournaments you can deduct the expenses (i.e. entry fees, travel, meals) from the winnings and only pay tax on what the net profit is after deductions.

I believe the guys running NAPA mean well but I don't think they have gotten good advice on a lot of these matters.

A lot of promoters of billiard events (both at the Pro and Amateur levels) have miscalculated what their expenses were going to be or over-estimated what sponsorship funds were coming in and had a problem with payouts. I love the game but you're going to play at amateur events don't expect the money to change your life any.

Expect it to change your life? Of course not. Expect it to cover the expenses? absolutely.

akerr1982 · Jun 20, 2014

Nullus said:
The payout was equivalent to entry fees. The difference is no added money. Instead of the standard 1st place doubles up 2nd place that you see in most tournament formats whereupon the tiered payouts begin with second place and go down....it was explained to me that they kept 1st place money below $600 because the LO that was in charge of setting payouts thought it would be in the best interests of the winner to not have to pay taxes on their winnings. So basically, instead of winning $1000 and paying 250-300 in taxes while taking home $700 plus still, the winner only got $550. That was in your bracket. It was worse in most of the rest of our brackets with 'A' and 'GM' only paying around $500 to the winner. It makes no sense. It's standard tournament payout procedure that first doubles up second, and the rest of the payout is stepped down to the last place payout which typically gets their entry fee back. Usually 25% of the field cashes. They paid so much to 2nd-5/6th, that first got shafted in each and every single bracket and classification. I'm not sure why one LO not wanting to pay taxes dictated a change in the normal payout procedures tournaments have used for well, ever, but it did. They seemed very disinterested to discuss it.

I love the NAPA format and wish Tony and the rest complete success going forward, but I sure hope he hires someone to come in and run it right next year. Seems letting a bunch of LO's with amateur level experience at running tournaments run things this year was a step backwards from last year. I've convinced several friends to join up in the past year, but I'm going to take a wait and see approach from here on out to see how things are done. The only true top players to show up this year for the tournaments were Alex, Julio and Tommy. Most of the elite players in NAPA don't even make the trip to Nationals and lowering payouts for the winners isn't the answer to getting them to come, for what it's worth. A switch to a proper Nationals venue like Atlantic City or Vegas would definitely help. Players like the NAPA format but they have no end game to look forward to that compares to other top leagues at present. Many folks are tired of the sandbagging in other leagues and the scoring formats, etc...but those leagues offer Vegas, and until NAPA competes with that for their year end tournament AND runs it right, with set payout percentages and no last minute changes to the tournament structuring, they will probably never catch up. It's too bad, they have a better system, just a lack of professional procedure. It's an easy fix, just one that needs to be made.

Well to address the offering up Vegas or Atlantic City...a league this new does not have the participation level to generously offer a venue or city such as those. Plus just to get the venue itself is a couple hundred thousand. So when the league grows which it is and becomes more successful then they will have the opportunity to offer great events in great venues such as those. I don't know much about the payout structure that was finalized which I have heard people saying that last year was a little better with the gap between 1st & 2nd but people NEED to understand that they ARE NOT paying any coin drop or an entry fee. Just a greens fee tournament such as this really doesn't have to bad of a payout for what your getting. So any added money type of tourney can't be done.

akerr1982 · Jun 20, 2014

GoBilliards said:
It's not really NAPA's fault. They just don't get it. They are trying to learn but it seems they are going backwards. I played in 2012 in Nashville. I got 5th in the masters 8ball. After a two day tournament was over, they still "Didn't know" what it paid. We waited until the next day to find out how much we won. I got $189.00 for 5th. cost roughly $1000.00 for the trip. After getting my check for $189 that no one would cash, I lost interest in 9ball and 10ball.

Pool players won't put up with this type of stuff. I'm shocked that anyone, much less the owners of a league like this, doesn't get this.

What pool players need to understand is that nothing is ever going to run smoothly like they expect it to be. I want to see just your top pool players run a tournament of these sizes and see how much effort and determination goes into it. They wouldn't last 1 day with the stuff that we deal with, i.e. Griping, sore losing, my race is wrong on my score sheet. It's that kind of nonsense that is putting a bad name on this industry because somebody got outplayed or beat themselves. Nobody is happy unless they are winning or making the other players "Feel their pain"

akerr1982 · Jun 20, 2014

GoBilliards said:
LOL. Bingo, we have a winner. And the excuses were The hotel gouged them for way more than originally expected. The flyer says $125,000.00 in payouts with an astrick.........at the bottom of the page it says "NAPA reserves the right to change the payout at any time for any reason"

To correct the top thread here, the greens fee basically was your entry fee, one time payment, and only 5 taken out for admin fee. Running these tourneys aren't free so taking 5 out of 45 making a 40 greens fee is pretty good at a decent payout for the novice players and some intermediate players that do not ever have a chance at some sort of National title.

GoBilliards · Jun 20, 2014

I have done this and you are making a way big deal of it. It's really not that hard. Posting the payouts before the first ball is hit is very important. Having a payout close to what you advertise is another important thing to do. I'm shocked you don't know this. But yes, Pool players are really hard to please. Myself included. Anyone who has ever dealt with them knows this. This is your 4th year. Please learn some of this stuff before it's too late. The payouts need to resemble what the flyer says and no one should ever arrive and find something totally different than they were told before they left home.

GoBilliards · Jun 20, 2014

Talking about Vegas is foolish for a league this size. You could run a tournament this size with 40 tables in a Warehouse somewhere.

Napa national payout issue

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