Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > Non Pool Related
Reload this Page Guns vs. Gun Violence
Reply
Page 5 of 6 « First 345 6
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old
  (#61)
SARDiver
JCC Chief
SARDiver has a reputation beyond reputeSARDiver has a reputation beyond reputeSARDiver has a reputation beyond reputeSARDiver has a reputation beyond reputeSARDiver has a reputation beyond reputeSARDiver has a reputation beyond reputeSARDiver has a reputation beyond reputeSARDiver has a reputation beyond reputeSARDiver has a reputation beyond reputeSARDiver has a reputation beyond reputeSARDiver has a reputation beyond repute
 
SARDiver's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,919
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2015
   
06-11-2019, 09:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBanker View Post
It is true that guns are occasionally used to stop violence. But contrary to what the National Rifle Association suggests, this is rare. One study by the Violence Policy Center found that in 2012 there were 259 justifiable homicides by a private citizen using a firearm.

Typical stupidity from the NYTimes, you don't have to kill the perp to stop the crime...
It was the federal government, not the NRA, that came up with the close to two million uses of defensive firearms information.

But hey, let's not quibble.
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#62)
tableroll
AzB Silver Member
tableroll has a reputation beyond reputetableroll has a reputation beyond reputetableroll has a reputation beyond reputetableroll has a reputation beyond reputetableroll has a reputation beyond reputetableroll has a reputation beyond reputetableroll has a reputation beyond reputetableroll has a reputation beyond reputetableroll has a reputation beyond reputetableroll has a reputation beyond reputetableroll has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 573
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Sep 2012
   
06-11-2019, 09:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Guns don't scare me. Mentally challenged people with guns do.


I've only ever heard right wing paranoids talk about that.

pj
chgo
How about mentally challenged people driving cars? Does that scare you too?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#63)
ribdoner
SATISFACTION GUARANTEED
ribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond reputeribdoner has a reputation beyond repute
 
ribdoner's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,549
vCash: 4300
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: cordova
   
06-11-2019, 10:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARDiver View Post
Soooo, there was a study several years ago, "The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981–2010", that had some interesting findings. Would you like to know what they were? Of course you do. You're a smart bunch.

Table three of this study found that, "For each 1-SD increase in proportion of household gun ownership, firearm homicide rate increased by 12.9%."

Wow! That's significant! An almost 13% increase in firearm homicide based on a one standard deviation increase in household gun ownership! And then, we get to the next part:

"For each 1-SD increase in proportion of black population, firearm homicide rate increased by 82.8%."

The answer is obvious, there, PJ. We simply outlaw blacks from owning guns. Since you don't seem to care about civil rights, and are only interested in preventing firearm fatalities, these numbers should do the trick.

Or, is that not acceptable?
let's see, could that be roughly 10% of a couple demographics...hmmmmmm, 10 + 10 = bout 20, right????

looks like you got a whiff of what i'm steppin in


the truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#64)
memikey
Never Has Been
memikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 19,942
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: I'm lost.
   
06-12-2019, 12:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy M. View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with any of this and, admittedly, I am not familiar with state vs. federal laws (or the equivalent of such a concept, if it even exists) in other countries. However, if you had a country where the gun laws were consistent throughout the entire country, regardless of state/region/province/etc., it would not be an apples-to-apples comparison to the US, where the laws differ dramatically from state to state. In that case, you'd have to settle on some state, or states, with a set of laws that most closely resembles, or is most opposite to, the set of laws in the country to which you're attempting to compare against, depending upon your goal for the comparison.
Aye jimmy, it depends on the goal (if there is a goal at all). To my mind, the matter of whether the two countries being compared murder-rate wise have similar or different gun laws is only relevant if the goal is to try to determine something such as for example whether the occupants of one of the countries are more inherently inclined to murder each other than the occupants of another country. Differences in the gun laws in two countries being compared had no relevance at all to the narrow and purely mathematical issue which was being discussed at the time I made my comments. There was no goal involved other than getting the math in order.

To me your above sensible thoughts partly serve to further highlight why it's pretty pointless for anyone to start hypothetically disqualifying or ignoring some of the murders in USA and then trying to draw significant conclusions whether the US murder rate would then compare more favourably with that of the other countries. One of the reasons that is rarely, if ever, going to give any meaningful or reliable results is because of the difficulty in assessing exactly which murders it would be reasonable and logical to also disqualify or ignore in those other countries in order to maintain the parity and integrity of the comparison.

That's one reason why murder rates in general (not just gun murder rates) can only realistically be used for international comparison purposes on a countrywide basis.......ie all the murders in USA versus all the murders in the other country......and even that isn't a rock solid comparison which tells us all that much in a statistical sense. But for all sorts of reasons, I think it's a lot closer to being relioable than any exercise in cherry picking which murders within each country to discount from calculations would be.

Quote:
Of course that leaves out any sort of discussion on cultural differences which, in my opinion, are likely more of a determining factor than numbers alone.
Aye, would definitely agree with that to a large extent as you will have gathered from the paras above.

People will always murder each other no matter what weapons are available to them People are murdered in USA by someone using knives at a lower rate than in, say, the Uk. The reverse is the case re guns. But total national murder rates (by whatever mean, not just knives/guns) indicate quite clearly that, for some reason(s), on average people in USA do murder each other at a significantly higher rate than in the Uk. That has to be at least partly cultural factors at play.

Enjoyed the chat. I'm about to reply to duckie on the content of his post which to a degree echoes a lot of the thoughts I have myself re the wider whole subject (as opposed to the narrow focussed one we've been having).


Mike

Last edited by memikey; 06-12-2019 at 02:10 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#65)
memikey
Never Has Been
memikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 19,942
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: I'm lost.
   
06-12-2019, 01:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckie View Post
People die from guns.......so what, that’s life. It really doesn’t matter if someone dies from a gun.

No one gets out alive, there is no guarantees to a long life, few have the choice of when, where and how they die........that’s life.

Be concern of only death by guns is nothing more than a political stance......nothing more.

It only shows you care about someone’s death when a gun is used and not from some other form of weapon.

There is a volience problem in this country. Therefore, there is no greater time to be able to defend yourself 24/7 anywhere and anytime with a firearm.

Guns are for self defense also, but this idea just gets ignored.
Those are in general terms the closest to many of my own views as I've seen on here for quite a while. "Aaaaargfhhh! No!" says duckie to himself quietly.....that bastard is going to get me crucified

I'm one of the voices in the Uk who speaks up in favour of more relaxed gun ownership laws. I have some friends and acquaintances who agree with me and some who disagree with me in that.

However, no matter how strongly I favour that position I never try to make my argument for more relaxed gun ownership laws by trying to prove to those holding opposing views that more guns in circulation isn't going to result in more gun murders and higher murder rates cos I'm not at all convinced yet that it wouldn't. Common sense tells me that in my country it probably would.

My underlying main position is strongly influenced by the same kind of premium you put on self defence aspects. I obviously don't know for sure that the kind of more relaxed gun ownership laws I favour would result in more gun murders in our country than there presently are or not....and to be brutally honest I don't really care that much either way. For me the bottom line is quite simply that, in today's ever increasingly violent world, I am far less concerned about how the national gun murder rate would pan out than I am about the safety of myself. my family, my friends and my property etc.

I view the improvement in that safety by me being subject to less restrictive private gun ownership laws as far outweighing a probable or at least potential increase in gun murders in the country. I have no objection to reasonable checks and balances on private gun ownership even though I'm inherently wary of the level of "Govt" ability to actually do that to a standard that would be useful and reliable.

I have absolutely no interest in whether my view fits one set of political dogma or another. The reality is that some parts of my view fit one set of dogma and other parts of my view fit another set of dogma. That's not by design. It's just the way it is with no frills.

Are my views a bit selfish? A bit yep.....guilty. But it's just how I honestly see it......and that's without even mentioning the more generalised issue of how pissed off I am at what I see as unjustifiable curtailments of rights I ought to have.

Thanks for bringing those thoughts back into focus for me.

I've never in the past and never will, make any comment about what the USA should or shouldn't do re gun ownership laws but I don't mind participating in discussions such as how to rationally and reasonably compare national murder rates and the like.


Mike

Last edited by memikey; 06-12-2019 at 02:31 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#66)
Jimmy M.
Insomniac
Jimmy M. has a reputation beyond reputeJimmy M. has a reputation beyond reputeJimmy M. has a reputation beyond reputeJimmy M. has a reputation beyond reputeJimmy M. has a reputation beyond reputeJimmy M. has a reputation beyond reputeJimmy M. has a reputation beyond reputeJimmy M. has a reputation beyond reputeJimmy M. has a reputation beyond reputeJimmy M. has a reputation beyond reputeJimmy M. has a reputation beyond repute
 
Jimmy M.'s Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,514
vCash: 8950
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Phoenix
   
06-12-2019, 02:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by memikey View Post
Aye jimmy, it depends on the goal (if there is a goal at all). To my mind, the matter of whether the two countries being compared murder-rate wise have similar or different gun laws is only relevant if the goal is to try to determine something such as for example whether the occupants of one of the countries are more inherently inclined to murder each other than the occupants of another country. Differences in the gun laws in two countries being compared had no relevance at all to the narrow and purely mathematical issue which was being discussed at the time I made my comments. There was no goal involved other than getting the math in order.

To me your above sensible thoughts partly serve to further highlight why it's pretty pointless for anyone to start hypothetically disqualifying or ignoring some of the murders in USA and then trying to draw significant conclusions whether the US murder rate would then compare more favourably with that of the other countries. One of the reasons that is rarely, if ever, going to give any meaningful or reliable results is because of the difficulty in assessing exactly which murders it would be reasonable and logical to also disqualify or ignore in those other countries in order to maintain the parity and integrity of the comparison.

That's one reason why murder rates in general (not just gun murder rates) can only realistically be used for international comparison purposes on a countrywide basis.......ie all the murders in USA versus all the murders in the other country......and even that isn't a rock solid comparison which tells us all that much in a statistical sense. But for all sorts of reasons, I think it's a lot closer to being relioable than any exercise in cherry picking which murders within each country to discount from calculations would be.



Aye, would definitely agree with that to a large extent as you will have gathered from the paras above.

People will always murder each other no matter what weapons are available to them People are murdered in USA by someone using knives at a lower rate than in, say, the Uk. The reverse is the case re guns. But total national murder rates (by whatever mean, not just knives/guns) indicate quite clearly that, for some reason(s), on average people in USA do murder each other at a significantly higher rate than in the Uk. That has to be at least partly cultural factors at play.

Enjoyed the chat. I'm about to reply to duckie on the content of his post which to a degree echoes a lot of the thoughts I have myself re the wider whole subject (as opposed to the narrow focussed one we've been having).
I always enjoy your posts as someone who appears to comment on what they see with no "side" to attempt to agree with. I admit that, as a citizen of the US, and US politics being the topic most frequently discussed in this forum, I have my biases, although I try hard to keep an open mind. Cheers, my friend! If fate ever decides that we end up in the same place at the same time, we'll have to have a drink or two (or more!).
  
Reply With Quote
Not race but gang membership
Old
  (#67)
ShootingArts
Smorg is giving the 7!
ShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond repute
 
ShootingArts's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 10,985
vCash: 2900
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South of the Border
   
Not race but gang membership - 06-12-2019, 02:30 AM

The problem isn't guns or race. It is gang membership. Sociologists say the gang replaces the family unit in broken families so the problem is very much families with no father figure.

Some countries don't have the level of gang activity so taking away two equal sized cities would disproportionately favor the US. However it would help illustrate the real issue.

Greater access for all has been proven to reduce violent crime. Restricting gun access is proven to increase violent crime. Looks like shootings might top 2000 in Chicago this year. Fortunately the criminals rarely are knowledgeable shooters and usually use hardball or the fatality count would be way up.

I was in a biker bar one afternoon when a fight started. Next thing I know half the bar is brawling. Kinda strange since none of them had been arguing and the two fighting were close friends and running buddies. It wasn't like opposing clubs or something like that. Almost every other guy in the bar pulled a gun. Half the women in the place pulled a gun. I was barefoot. It bites to be the only one in the crowd without a gun!

Hu

PS: Things may even out soon. Unfortunately in a bad way. The mideastern influx in western europe seems to be serving as gangs with the criminal activity and violence associated with them.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#68)
Sev
I taut I saw a pussy cat!
Sev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond repute
 
Sev's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 98,823
vCash: 500
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: State of Franklin
   
06-12-2019, 04:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by memikey View Post


Sorry but you seem to perhaps have misunderstood what I was suggesting was flawed in the section of my post that you bolded and quoted. Gun control laws are completely irrelevant to that statement which dealt solely with what I saw as a flawed way (mathematically and logically) to go about comparing murder rates in USA with murder rates elsewhere.

The existence of strict State or Federal gun controls, loose gun controls or even no gun controls at all, in any given city, state, region or country have no bearing at all on the subject of how to reasonably go about comparing the murder rates of any two different countries on a like for like basis.

The recorded murder rates in any given cities, states, regions or countries simply are what they are, ie the population divided by the number of murders, no matter what the gun laws might be. There are reasonable ways to go about comparing those recorded rates in USA with recorded rates in other countries and there are potentially flawed ways. Ignoring the cities in USA with the worst murder rates without ignoring the comparable worst murder rate cities in other countries would be one of those flawed ways as would any other cherry picking of which murders to count and which to ignore. To My mind that's a pretty straightforward and unambiguous concept.

I don't see how the points you have raised makes a suggestion to ignore the US cities or areas with the worst murder rates any less flawed a way to compare murder rates in USA with murder rates in other countries.

Your points appear to have potential relevance to a potential discussion about the factors to take into account when comparing murder rates in different US cities and States with each other......but that's not a subject my post made any comment upon.

PS......just noticed Sev made what amounts to a similarly flawed method of comparison suggestion upthread...…

.

To which it would strike me that the logical response is of course that the only meaningful new US rank after doing what he suggests is the US rank after you also subtracted all the gun violence in the inner cities of all the other countries on the list
Incorrect.
It correlates that the most significant problem with gun violence when the proportion of population is considered, emanates from the black population followed by the Latino population.

Not the larger Caucasian population that actually own the overwhelming amount of firearms and ammunition in the country.

It also points out that there is a societal problem in those areas that is largely ignored by the left. Supposedly the champions of blacks.
But since their policies stemming back to the 1960 have created the situation. It is more appropriate to consider them champions of malevolence towards the black population.


Keep your head down and admire the shot.


COVFEFE!!



“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”---Martin Luther King, Jr.

I'm just a flea along for the ride... ---366Robin

Revelations of truth undermine a foundation of belief built on lies.---Sev

If our answers scare you, maybe you should stop asking frightening questions.---ChicagoRJ
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#69)
Sev
I taut I saw a pussy cat!
Sev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond reputeSev has a reputation beyond repute
 
Sev's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 98,823
vCash: 500
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: State of Franklin
   
06-12-2019, 05:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SARDiver View Post
Soooo, there was a study several years ago, "The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981–2010", that had some interesting findings. Would you like to know what they were? Of course you do. You're a smart bunch.

Table three of this study found that, "For each 1-SD increase in proportion of household gun ownership, firearm homicide rate increased by 12.9%."

Wow! That's significant! An almost 13% increase in firearm homicide based on a one standard deviation increase in household gun ownership! And then, we get to the next part:

"For each 1-SD increase in proportion of black population, firearm homicide rate increased by 82.8%."

The answer is obvious, there, PJ. We simply outlaw blacks from owning guns. Since you don't seem to care about civil rights, and are only interested in preventing firearm fatalities, these numbers should do the trick.

Or, is that not acceptable?
I think PJ wouldnt find that racist in the least.
After all.
Addressing a problem and eliminating it is the objective.



Keep your head down and admire the shot.


COVFEFE!!



“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”---Martin Luther King, Jr.

I'm just a flea along for the ride... ---366Robin

Revelations of truth undermine a foundation of belief built on lies.---Sev

If our answers scare you, maybe you should stop asking frightening questions.---ChicagoRJ
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#70)
ChicagoRJ
EEEEEXCELLENT ;)
ChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond repute
 
ChicagoRJ's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 34,756
vCash: 500
iTrader: 83 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: 35 miles West of Chiraq
   
06-12-2019, 06:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by memikey View Post
This post is only about the logic. I'm a gun ownership supporter

There seems to be more than one source of flawed thinking on display

Obviously ignoring a whole bunch of murders in the USA's worst murder cities/areas and not including them nor the total populations of those cities in the calculation of the USA's murder rate will lower the USA's murder rate......and equally obviously that new notional USA murder rate would then fare better than it currently does in comparison to currently published murder rates in other countries..

However in order for that new notional reduced USA murder rate to have any real value as far as comparison with the murder rates of any other countries goes, you'd need to be comparing it with whatever new reduced murder rates those other countries would have if they too deducted all the murders in their worst murder cities, cos their murder rates would drop significantly too. I personally see no good reason to think the murder rate differentials between USA and other countries would be very much different from where they stand now if that were done and you had an apples with apples comparison.

I don't want to get involved in the pro or anti-liberal politics you are arguing with others per-se but there's also a glaring bit of flawed logic on that front. Your suggestion about the improved comparison of murder rates doesn't seem any less flawed if you even forget the option of ignoring cities and instead ignore all murders perpetrated by liberals

Many European countries have no shortage of liberals......indeed if the opinion of the majority of posters on here is to be believed they have a far higher percentage of liberals than in USA......Europe is forever being slated for its liberalism.....yet their murder rates are way lower than USA's. If you were to ignore all murders by liberals in USA and in the other countries when calculating the murder rates, the math dictates that the USA's murder rate would probably be even worse by comparison with Europe than it is right now.

That's hardly an in depth look at the subject of course. However you are far from daft and you must surely see the obvious inherent potential mathematical and logical flaw there right from the get go
First, lets not insult our European friends and compare them to American liberals, that's beneath you I'm talking about good old fashioned American liberal cities, that are run by dems, for dems, that kill other dems.

My point about the big liberal cities not being counted would be to demonstrate they are the problem, not gun owners. Most of the 300M gun owned by legal gun owners are not the problem. Thus, it's not a "gun" problem in the USA since its only concentrated in the big liberal cities. Take them out, and our murder rate is as good as most in Europe. They don't have the same "problem" we have..... open borders, welfare society, uneducated nimrods, pregnant girl at 13.....

Why not attack the problem, the big liberal cities where most of the shooting occurs. They want to attack my 2A rights, but have serious concerns of instituting a "stop and frisk" in high crime areas.

if you want to attack the constitution to reduce crime, then do it with the one that will help. taking my gun away saves nobody. Stop and frisking will save hundreds of lives in one city.


RUSSIAN Magic Chalk - "The Best Chalk of the World"


TZAR Tips now available.

"I have been playing pool for 60 years and started using Kamui about four years ago. I tried Magic Chalk several months ago and will use it from now on" - jrhendy - Noted Player and Gambler

Baltic BLUE & Chernobyl GREEN


Check us out in "For Sale" section on AZB


ChicagoRJ, the Minister of Truth and Magic Chalk. - WGDave

Last edited by ChicagoRJ; 06-12-2019 at 06:26 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#71)
memikey
Never Has Been
memikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond reputememikey has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 19,942
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: I'm lost.
   
06-12-2019, 08:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
First, lets not insult our European friends and compare them to American liberals, that's beneath you I'm talking about good old fashioned American liberal cities, that are run by dems, for dems, that kill other dems.

My point about the big liberal cities not being counted would be to demonstrate they are the problem, not gun owners. Most of the 300M gun owned by legal gun owners are not the problem. Thus, it's not a "gun" problem in the USA since its only concentrated in the big liberal cities. Take them out, and our murder rate is as good as most in Europe. They don't have the same "problem" we have..... open borders, welfare society, uneducated nimrods, pregnant girl at 13
Of course a revised US murder rate that you describe would look better in comparison to current European murder rates if you don't count all the murders that occur in your most murderous cities.

My granddaughters exam results would look better in comparison to her classmates if we don't count most of her wrong exam answers but do count all of theirs. Not exactly a reasonable or sensible suggestion for how to establish where she really stands in comparison to her classmates, is it?

Most European countries do actually have a similar main problem as the US in the sense of having most of their murders concentrated in a few particular cities/areas with the rest of the country having comparatively few murders. So does the Uk.

There might be different contributory reasons for the bulk of their murders to be concentrated in a few particular cities/areas than the reasons are for similar circumstances existing in USA...….but the end result is the same when just considering the subject of murder rates.....don't count the murders that occur in those worst cities/areas of every country and the murder rates in all countries goes down, not just in USA.


Quote:
Why not attack the problem, the big liberal cities where most of the shooting occurs. They want to attack my 2A rights, but have serious concerns of instituting a "stop and frisk" in high crime areas.

if you want to attack the constitution to reduce crime, then do it with the one that will help. taking my gun away saves nobody. Stop and frisking will save hundreds of lives in one city.
Why not indeed. Attack it any way you like, makes no odds to me. I understand exactly what you are saying and think you are probably right about where the murders occur and who is doing the murdering......but your line of argument on how much better US national murder rates would look in comparison to the national murder rates of other countries if cherry picked quantities of murders were ignored and not counted n USA is seriously flawed for very obvious plain as day math and basic logic reasons. That was all I was saying. If you don't see why it's flawed I'm out of ways to explain it


Mike

Last edited by memikey; 06-12-2019 at 08:40 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#72)
slop stroke
I drink, theyfore I ain't
slop stroke has a reputation beyond reputeslop stroke has a reputation beyond reputeslop stroke has a reputation beyond reputeslop stroke has a reputation beyond reputeslop stroke has a reputation beyond reputeslop stroke has a reputation beyond reputeslop stroke has a reputation beyond reputeslop stroke has a reputation beyond reputeslop stroke has a reputation beyond reputeslop stroke has a reputation beyond reputeslop stroke has a reputation beyond repute
 
slop stroke's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 1,970
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Feb 2007
   
06-12-2019, 08:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by memikey View Post
Of course a revised US murder rate that you describe would look better in comparison to current European murder rates if you don't count all the murders that occur in your most murderous cities.

My granddaughters exam results would look better in comparison to her classmates if we don't count most of her wrong exam answers but do count all of theirs. Not exactly a reasonable or sensible suggestion for how to establish where she really stands in comparison to her classmates, is it?

Most European countries do actually have a similar main problem as the US in the sense of having most of their murders concentrated in a few particular cities/areas with the rest of the country having comparatively few murders. So does the Uk.

There might be different contributory reasons for the bulk of their murders to be concentrated in a few particular cities/areas than the reasons are for similar circumstances existing in USA...….but the end result is the same when just considering the subject of murder rates.....don't count the murders that occur in those worst cities/areas of every country and the murder rates in all countries goes down, not just in USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
] Why not attack the problem, the big liberal cities where most of the shooting occurs. They want to attack my 2A rights, but have serious concerns of instituting a "stop and frisk" in high crime areas.

if you want to attack the constitution to reduce crime, then do it with the one that will help. taking my gun away saves nobody. Stop and frisking will save hundreds of lives in one city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by memikey View Post
Attack it any way you like, makes no odds to me. I understand exactly what you are saying and think you are probably right about where the murders occur and who is doing the murdering......but your line of argument on how much better US murder rates would look in comparison to others if cherry picked quantities of murders were ignored and not counted is seriously flawed for very obvious plain as day math reasons. That was all I was saying. If you don't see why it's flawed I'm out of ways to explain it
I say we should just factor out all the gun violence from the US side, and then compare our rates to the Euros. I betcha we will look favorable then!! Problem solved!


"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#73)
ChicagoRJ
EEEEEXCELLENT ;)
ChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond repute
 
ChicagoRJ's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 34,756
vCash: 500
iTrader: 83 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: 35 miles West of Chiraq
   
06-12-2019, 09:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by memikey View Post
Of course a revised US murder rate that you describe would look better in comparison to current European murder rates if you don't count all the murders that occur in your most murderous cities.

My granddaughters exam results would look better in comparison to her classmates if we don't count most of her wrong exam answers but do count all of theirs. Not exactly a reasonable or sensible suggestion for how to establish where she really stands in comparison to her classmates, is it?

Most European countries do actually have a similar main problem as the US in the sense of having most of their murders concentrated in a few particular cities/areas with the rest of the country having comparatively few murders. So does the Uk.

There might be different contributory reasons for the bulk of their murders to be concentrated in a few particular cities/areas than the reasons are for similar circumstances existing in USA...….but the end result is the same when just considering the subject of murder rates.....don't count the murders that occur in those worst cities/areas of every country and the murder rates in all countries goes down, not just in USA.




Why not indeed. Attack it any way you like, makes no odds to me. I understand exactly what you are saying and think you are probably right about where the murders occur and who is doing the murdering......but your line of argument on how much better US national murder rates would look in comparison to the national murder rates of other countries if cherry picked quantities of murders were ignored and not counted n USA is seriously flawed for very obvious plain as day math and basic logic reasons. That was all I was saying. If you don't see why it's flawed I'm out of ways to explain it

I know it's flawed, but I'm making a point. There is NO city, and I mean no city in Germany, Austria, Switzerland or other "nice" countries in Europe that has a single city that has 2,000 shootings in one year. See the point now?

Those liberal strongholds are making the rest of us look bad

So, let me rephrase the statement since you don't seem to like it. If we eliminated our big liberal city shit holes, the US murder rate would very low and would rival that of many countries around the world... so the US is not dangerous, just select shit holes.


RUSSIAN Magic Chalk - "The Best Chalk of the World"


TZAR Tips now available.

"I have been playing pool for 60 years and started using Kamui about four years ago. I tried Magic Chalk several months ago and will use it from now on" - jrhendy - Noted Player and Gambler

Baltic BLUE & Chernobyl GREEN


Check us out in "For Sale" section on AZB


ChicagoRJ, the Minister of Truth and Magic Chalk. - WGDave
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#74)
ChicagoRJ
EEEEEXCELLENT ;)
ChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond reputeChicagoRJ has a reputation beyond repute
 
ChicagoRJ's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 34,756
vCash: 500
iTrader: 83 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: 35 miles West of Chiraq
   
06-12-2019, 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by slop stroke View Post
I say we should just factor out all the gun violence from the US side, and then compare our rates to the Euros. I betcha we will look favorable then!! Problem solved!
We'll never look favorable to the Europeans... the Swiss have guns and don't shoot up their towns. Thus, the Swiss are like our conservative held towns. My conservative town had one shooting in the last decade. Yes, you read that right... ONE. and we are armed to the teeth, with at least 2 gun stores, and 3 gun ranges. And many folks own guns... but nobody is shooting one another... that's weird.

so, the question is, are liberals just naturally more violent, are they more prone to be raised by bad parents, or are they just naturally stupid.


RUSSIAN Magic Chalk - "The Best Chalk of the World"


TZAR Tips now available.

"I have been playing pool for 60 years and started using Kamui about four years ago. I tried Magic Chalk several months ago and will use it from now on" - jrhendy - Noted Player and Gambler

Baltic BLUE & Chernobyl GREEN


Check us out in "For Sale" section on AZB


ChicagoRJ, the Minister of Truth and Magic Chalk. - WGDave
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#75)
michael4
AzB Silver Member
michael4 has a reputation beyond reputemichael4 has a reputation beyond reputemichael4 has a reputation beyond reputemichael4 has a reputation beyond reputemichael4 has a reputation beyond reputemichael4 has a reputation beyond reputemichael4 has a reputation beyond reputemichael4 has a reputation beyond reputemichael4 has a reputation beyond reputemichael4 has a reputation beyond reputemichael4 has a reputation beyond repute
 
michael4's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 12,469
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: so cal
   
06-12-2019, 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Even after that the correlation is clearly visible: less gun ownership = less gun violence.
as mentioned, there are many other factors that have a part in the "correlation",

but assuming your correlation is correct, we as a country have decided not to limit cars, even though more cars = more road deaths, we regulate but don't limit alcohol, we don't do random searches into people's homes, even if would solve/prevent more crimes, and we regulate, but don't limit gun ownership...……

we have to find a balance point in all these areas, balancing individual rights vs public safety. we never choose the option that gives us maximum public safety, because it infringes way too much on individual freedom......
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 5 of 6 « First 345 6

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.