APA skill level review--advice wanted

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let me be clear: this is NOT a thread for bashing the APA. I am not complaining about the APA. If you want to post here, please keep these things in mind!

I am seeking advice from people who may have experienced a similar situation:

I have a player on my team who was a 3. She has been a 2 in the last 20 weeks, and actually played a total of 6 matches as a 2 at various times over those last 20 weeks. (She has gone up and down...usually wins as a 2). So at this sessions regional playoffs, she plays the first round as a 3. Her opponent played badly, and served up some nice easy tables for her. She shot the match of her life and won. We come back the next day and they have moved her up to a 4. Believe me, she is NOT a 4. Her skill set is nothing like the typical 4's in our area. She only wins 50% of the time as a 3. Her innings average well above 5, generally over 6 innings per game. I have inquired with my league operator about it. He is a really nice guy, and quite helpful. He would not tell me if the skill level was manually adjusted, or was automatically calculated by the computer. Let's just say that there is no possible chance it was calculated by the computer. We are a very honest team, keep track of every safety shot, mark all innings, and always try our best on every single shot. No suprise that over the years, many people's handicaps have gone up. I have never argued or raised the slightest objection.

However, this time I believe a mistake was made. Someone manually adjusted her score without enough info to do so. She could have shot a 7 level score in the playoffs (she didn't!!) and it still wouldn't have been enough to offset her average.

I am not really interested in debating whether or not the skill level change was justified. Lets just assume for the sake of this thread that it was NOT justified. My LO asked me to submit a handicap review form. I did. He contacted corporate and they told him that NO handicaps would be reviewed for teams qualified for the States (LTC). We played 3 rounds in the playoffs...she played the first round and won, and then sat out the next 2 rounds after she was raised to a 4. I am now told that not only will they not review her handicap being raised, but that her S/L will be locked until the states in June?!?!? Something is fundamentally wrong with this.

My question: has anyone faced a similar situation? How did you handle it? What courses of action resulted in success (having the skill level restored to the correct level). Should I be appealing directly to corporate, since there is a possible conflict of interest with my league office? (They have nothing against me and my team, but they may have something against being "wrong".) I mean, this girl is not good. No offense to her, but she often misses ball in hand. She is NOT a 4 or close to it.

Any advice would be most appreciated,

KMRUNOUT
 

LoupSeul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My question: has anyone faced a similar situation? How did you handle it? What courses of action resulted in success (having the skill level restored to the correct level). Should I be appealing directly to corporate, since there is a possible conflict of interest with my league office? (They have nothing against me and my team, but they may have something against being "wrong".) I mean, this girl is not good. No offense to her, but she often misses ball in hand. She is NOT a 4 or close to it.



I had the same thing happen to myself, and two other players in regional qualifiers and it was part of the reason stopped playing. All this nonsense about rules and keeping score and handicaps and so on and so forth really
sucked the fun out of pool.
 

TheNewSharkster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe the LO can remove the lock. I know we have a guy who went to a SL6 at nationals and when he came back they had him locked as a SL6. He talked with the LO and she somehow removed the lock.

Disclaimer: I don't really know the facts, just what was told to me
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My question: has anyone faced a similar situation? How did you handle it? What courses of action resulted in success (having the skill level restored to the correct level). Should I be appealing directly to corporate, since there is a possible conflict of interest with my league office? (They have nothing against me and my team, but they may have something against being "wrong".) I mean, this girl is not good. No offense to her, but she often misses ball in hand. She is NOT a 4 or close to it.



I had the same thing happen to myself, and two other players in regional qualifiers and it was part of the reason stopped playing. All this nonsense about rules and keeping score and handicaps and so on and so forth really
sucked the fun out of pool.

Actually, I have no issue whatsoever with following rules and keeping score. In fact, quite the opposite. I am upset because my team is one of the few that really tries hard to do things right. We never cheat, always tell the opponents if we foul and they don't notice, ruthlessly mark defensive shots, and always shoot every shot to win (or else tell everyone it was a safe). I take a level of pride in doing things accurately, and I bring this to our scorekeeping too. If every team did what we do, there would be no such thing as "sandbagging". Are we simply paying the price for the lowest common denominator? I'm fine with skill levels and having them go up, if the scores justify it.

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT
 

kaznj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had understood that if you went to the nationals as a level, say a six, you were always going to be a six. Recently, someone told me that this was not correct. You could be lowered if you played badly, but only at the local level. If you ever went back to the nationals you had to play at the higher rating.
Maybe someone here can confirm this.
 

mrinsatiable

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of the many reasons why APA is looked down upon in the pool community. Either way at least your player was shooting well and your team is successful.
 

RWOJO

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Skill Levels

From playing over 5 years in the APA I have seen a lot of weird things. I have seen a brand new player was handed a match (now no E-8's or anything like that). The other player dogged everything and left an easy table for the new player, they got out, beat them what looked badly on paper and was moved to a SL 6 the following week. We had to post this player and watch them lose every single week for the rest of the session until they finall had moved all the way down to a SL 3 where he belonged.

I have seen players on opposing teams in the playoffs have a player that was a SL5 break and run, make an 8 on the break and absolutely destroy another SL5 in very very low innings and the player didn't move up a skill level.

I have also seen in another league, extremely low skill levels break and run while shooting far above what their skill level is, and they do not move up.

I guess the system is flawed. No system can accurately track someone's true skill level because there are so many X factors. People play to different levels different days. People play to different levels against different opponents. People can whether on purpose or not, play below their skill level. Some people are playing socially during the season (drinking and sociallizing) and then competing harder during the playoffs. It would unfair to move a player up everytime they played 1 game or a couple games above their current level. This judgement could be distorted.

I'll end this rant with something I hear on a regular basis. I am an instructor and I always hear "I want to stay a Skill Level 4 but I want to play like a SL 7"
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of the many reasons why APA is looked down upon in the pool community. Either way at least your player was shooting well and your team is successful.

Well, successful is a relative term. We went to Vegas last year on a total lucky circumstance. It was this player playing as a 3 against a 6 on the other team. The match was in sudden death, so it was just one rack. The 6 ran to the 8 and smashed at a bank that went in the wrong pocket. She won the match without sinking a ball!

I am of course glad that we are set to qualify again, but that is just one week out of the year. The other 50 weeks she has to play and try to enjoy herself in the regular weekly thing. It is tough to have fun when you ALWAYS lose. She has no chance of winning as a 4. Maybe if she hooks up with a 2 that can't pocket 1 ball in a row, she could win. We shall see. Sad thing though...

KMRUNOUT
 

dr9ball

"Lock Doctor"
Silver Member
This is just my opinion. I believe you do your player a disservice by saying that she has no chance of winning as a SL4. It's only one more game than before and maybe if she is given the chance to rise to the opportunity she will grow into the SL4 level.
 

xxroodoggxx

xxroodoggxx
Silver Member
We had the same thing happen too us. She was a sl 4 that was probably 50/50 with most going 12-8 either way. She plays another 4 at cities that scratched like 10 times so that almost 20 pts handed too her an wins like 18-2 or 17-3 this girl goes an complains an our girl is a 5 next match an doesn't win rest of session but never got moved back to a 4


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. **roo$t@r**
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i had one of those nights that i played better than usual. plus my opponent gave me ball in hand 5 times in a 4 game match.

the following week i was raised to a 5. i didnt win a game the rest of the session, lost 10 in a row. during the last night of the session i asked my lo to look at my record for the session and let me know in his opinion if i was handicapped correctly. i was lowered to a 4 the following week.

i didnt complain about my record or ask to be lowered or anything like that. i merely asked him to review my matches and give me his opinion.

maybe you should ask your lo to review your teamates matches. its worth a try.
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is just my opinion. I believe you do your player a disservice by saying that she has no chance of winning as a SL4. It's only one more game than before and maybe if she is given the chance to rise to the opportunity she will grow into the SL4 level.

I respect your right to your opinion, but similar to my league office, you appear to be making an assumption based on very little information. What you say is *possible*, although extremely unlikely. This is exactly what we talked about when she went from a 2 to a 3 only several weeks ago. She did have the realistic chance to be competitive as a 3. Her win % was 50, which means she was just getting by as a 3. When I say "no chance of winning", I figured it went without saying that what I mean is "she will not be competitive as a 4". I believe she will only win if she plays a 2 who can't make a ball. This is my opinion, and also the opinion of the player in question and the rest of the team. One difference is that I have YEARS of observation of this player to back up my opinion. I think you would be very much more qualified to stand behind your assertion if you had at least seen her play once. I'm just calling it like I see it. It would be a disservice to her to ask her to come and lose every week. She won't enjoy it. Knowing her as a person for many years, she will not invest any time in trying to reinvent her game, or really even improve at all. She doesn't have that drive. It took a lot to teach her how to win as a 3.

Besides, I was asking for advice on how best to deal with the league, not whether or not people believe me that she should be a 3. Thanks anyway though, I genuinely do appreciate all perspectives on this.

KMRUNOUT
 

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i had one of those nights that i played better than usual. plus my opponent gave me ball in hand 5 times in a 4 game match.

the following week i was raised to a 5. i didnt win a game the rest of the session, lost 10 in a row. during the last night of the session i asked my lo to look at my record for the session and let me know in his opinion if i was handicapped correctly. i was lowered to a 4 the following week.

i didnt complain about my record or ask to be lowered or anything like that. i merely asked him to review my matches and give me his opinion.

maybe you should ask your lo to review your teamates matches. its worth a try.

This is an excellent suggestion, and the first post to offer me advice. Don't get me wrong, I am happy to hear about other peoples' experiences, so please keep them coming. But mostly I would like to know what worked for other people.

I really like the approach you advise here. Unfortunately its too late for that. My LO was not present at the regional playoffs. The morning I found out she was a 4, I suggested to the 2nd in command that there might have been a mistake. He shut me down completely, and said "we are not going to talk about handicaps at all". He asked me to fill out a review request form. I did. I was then told that corporate told my LO that no skill levels would be reviewed for players that qualified for the states.

Another problem is that my LO, as the boss, is essentially responsible for the decision one of his underlings made to raise her skill level manually. Thus to "correct" that mistake is essentially to admit error. Having talked for many hours to my LO, he is generally not one to admit error. Instead, he will come up with a million "reasons" that what they did was ok, and justified. His contention is that she had a 60% win average for her last 20 games. This is true. She won 5 of the 12 she won as a 2. Also, for anyone familiar with the way the handicap system works, win % is really not a significant factor in determining skill level. It is principally based on innings per game. She averaged 6.85 innings per game over her last 20. 5.35 over her best 10 of the last 20. Sorry, but this is a 3. So given my LO's "justification" for the raise, it sounds like he is either grabbing at straws to justify an error his staff made (by even mentioning win %), or he is not very knowledgeable about the APA handicap system (which I doubt).

In either case, there exists a potential conflict of interest in that the LO may want to avoid admitting error by changing her S/L back down. I am curious why I hear on here all the time about LO's doing whatever they please, and mine is telling me his hands are tied by corporate. Odd that they were not tied when he manually changed her S/L??

Anyway, I do appreciate the advice. At very least I will ask him to review her handicap as if the situation never happened.

Thanks again,

KMRUNOUT
 
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Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
One difference is that I have YEARS of observation of this player to back up my opinion. I think you would be very much more qualified to stand behind your assertion if you had at least seen her play once. I'm just calling it like I see it. It would be a disservice to her to ask her to come and lose every week. She won't enjoy it. Knowing her as a person for many years, she will not invest any time in trying to reinvent her game, or really even improve at all. She doesn't have that drive. It took a lot to teach her how to win as a 3.


KMRUNOUT

I know EXACTLY where you are coming from with these comments. Like myself, you have YEARS of experience of APA leagues, and after a while you get to know the people in your leagues and can pretty much tell by watching them shoot time after time what their skill levels SHOULD be. I knew a woman that got raised to a 3 in 8-ball that ended up giving up a Rackless Night to her opponents about every other week. I have seen her shoot MANY times and I can tell you, she ain't no SL3. I think she got raised because she won some matches where her opponents screwed-up so bad that a six-year old could've won. There should be a column on the scoresheet to check every time a player gives up a ball-in-hand. This might help in figuring out why a lower skill-level person may "appear" to be shooting well when winning matches. If a league operator or division rep is worth their salt, then they would have some kind of idea of how a person ACTUALLY plays BEFORE manually raising ones skill level. This can only be accomplished by the LO or division rep going out and watching different teams matches from week to week and getting more "up close and personal" with their league players.

I truly do feel for you, my friend!!!

Maniac
 

OneIron

On the snap, Vinny!
Silver Member
Actually, I have no issue whatsoever with following rules and keeping score. In fact, quite the opposite. I am upset because my team is one of the few that really tries hard to do things right. We never cheat, always tell the opponents if we foul and they don't notice, ruthlessly mark defensive shots, and always shoot every shot to win (or else tell everyone it was a safe). I take a level of pride in doing things accurately, and I bring this to our scorekeeping too. If every team did what we do, there would be no such thing as "sandbagging". Are we simply paying the price for the lowest common denominator? I'm fine with skill levels and having them go up, if the scores justify it.

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT

Unfortunately, what you have described is a sure formula for losing in the APA. Sandbaggers tend to win in the APA. And many get away with it forever. :frown:
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Don't buy into the old "Home office raised the handicap crap"...

The last 2 years I played APA we had 2 miracle handicap bumps.... In the session playoffs we knocked out the team we had from Knoxville that went every year, like 7 years in a row... Unfortunately for us the LO's boyfriend was on that team so we got a dosing of handicap increases... They even raised one of my players that didn't even play in the prior match so we would be hogtied in the finals with who we could play..... We still ended up blanking the other team in the finals so we got our spot in the cities...

In the cities we won our first match and we were going up against the LO's assistant's team and lo and behold between round I had 2 players move up handicaps... Once again one of them didn't even play.... I understand people moving up but 2 instances of no match input seemed fishy... The other fishy part was the playoffs were held 30 minutes from the LO's home office... she was gone 20 minutes and tried to tell us she had gone home and input the numbers to the main office and they were the ones who had adjusted the handicaps.....

The last session I played I got drug into it kicking and screaming.. This was the free trip to Vegas league as long as you were on the "right" team... I get one of my partners in crime to join us so we are a lock again to finish in first in the sessions... We make the playoff and win 3-0 first round... I was the final win for the night...

The race was 5-5... We were both 6s... There was only one 7 in the league in 2000 and he was a ex-road player who had traveled extensively with Wade Crane... We had a 4 that had finished 2nd in the TN amateur 2 out of 3 years (he is barred from the APA for life after they took him to Vegas btw)... Actually "we" didn't have him he was on the LO's boyfriend's team for one trip to Vegas....

I run off and hide from him and I am up 4-0... I run down to my last ball which is close to the 8 stick him to the 8 and free my last ball... He has to really stretch just to kick the end rail and climbs up on the table... He kicks and hits one of his balls and leaves me 4 feet straight in on my last ball... The referee provided by the LO calls a foul for no foot on the floor... I move the cueball about a foot to give me a natural angle and finish the game.... I win 5-0 we win 3-0... Play again in 3 days in the next round.....

I get up the next morning and head to Birmingham to work for 2 days... I get a phone call and the LO has called the team captain and told him we had to replay my entire match because there was no one foot on the floor rule in effect.... Not just the last game but the whole match mind you..... The captain explains I am in Birmingham and cannot come back for a match that night and the LO informs him we will have to forfeit... He says fine so we are up 2-1 I can get enough players to finish and the LO informs him that we will forfeit not just my match but the round in the playoff..... Which is exactly what happened.....

Needless to say when I got home I met my team at our home bar and collected all of the APA membership cards... I drove to where the next round of playoffs were where I threw the membership cards on the table the team we had to forfeit to was playing and told the LO she could stick em up her a$$.....

I'm not bashing the APA just telling you what I know about the handicap review... We filled 1 out both times and in neither instance did they accomplish anything... They wanted us broken up so the OP's boyfriend's team could have easy trips to Vegas. We had beaten them 2 out of the 3 years I played and they lost the year of the card incident to another new team... at that point I think they were just "Over The Hill"........
 
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bmsclayton

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
apa

If you play apa for anything other than the fun of it you need to be prepared for all of the extra bs that gos along with it. The system is flawed, manipulated by players, teams and lo's for lots of reasons. In any handicapped tournament or league there will always be underrated players and over rated players. From what I have seen the apa just does the handicapping the worst out of all leagues and tournaments. Don't waste time trying to make sense of it.
 

D_Lewis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This past year during the regionals, we ended up winning the 9 ball tournament and having 3 players skill level increase. We had to go to a review where we were cleared for our handicaps and awarded the trip after a week. We couldnt even celebrate when we won as we were told we had to go through a review by the APA.

So after we're cleared we go to 8 ball regionals, I have only 5 players for the Friday night match, 4 for Saturday morning and would have had 3 for Saturday afternoon. We end up winning the first match 3-1, nobody played overly well other than my wife who lost 6-0 to a SL6. We drive 45 minutes to play Saturday and we are told everyone who won was bumped up and were DQ'd from the tournament and out of the league. We lose our trip and all got 2 year suspensions.

On my team, we were all buddies. From school or the pool hall or just pool in general. I personally taught 7 of the 8 players how to play pool (including myself) I took them all from not being able to make a ball to eventually having them all playing good enough to win a tournament. Within one year my league operator is telling me I turned 5 players from SL3's and maybe played 20 games of pool in their lives to minimum SL5/SL6.

The APA/CPA will screw you at any chance they can get. There are teams from our area who win a Vegas trip every year at very least 4/5 years and they have the same players at the same handicap.

Complete ****ing joke.
 

SpotMonster22

Registered
Ugh.

I think for now you need to sit and wait for a few weeks and let her play as a 4. I would play her against other 4s as much as possible. Then go back to the LO, and ask again about the skill level, or maybe have her directly ask the LO. If she's playing straight up against players who should be her equal, more or less, it should show pretty clearly if she' at the wrong level.

If it was a computer raise, and as you say her record wasn't 4 level, and she loses, she will go down. Or, if its a manual raise, the LO may be waiting to see what's going to happen, before dropping her down again. (But you want to make sure he doesn't just forget)..

That could help for the season, but for the higher level tournaments, I think she's stuck as a 4. We had a player who went up to a 5 for one week, the final week of the play offs. He won his play off match, then lost his first regular session match and the next week he was back down to a 4, and then gradually to a 3. When it came time for the LTC, we were all shocked that he was a 5 (even the LO). We had all forgotten about the one week that he was a 5. The LO did everything he could to get him lowered, but St. Louis wouldn't even discuss it.

(Incidentally, win record has a lot do with the skill level than many people realize. )
 
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