Splitting The Difference Aiming System

paultex · Dec 26, 2017

sbordona said:
I tried your test and shot numerous shots with both little mikes aim cb to co and then pivot to 3/4 ob, and it hit just before the corner pocket. I then shot numerous shots with aiming one tip to the left of center of the cb aligning with the center of the ob and then pivoting to center of the cb, and the shot went in. So you are correct the pre-pivot shot does cut the ob more than a cb to co and then pivoting to 3/4 ob.

I tried this on my 9 foot diamond table with 4 1/4" pockets.

I believe the reason the pivot shot misses thick, is because the stroke direction tends to spring back or redirects toward center cb.

I am curious, if you set up and then apply the manual pivot outward, right of center cb, does it feel like there is a torque resistance wanting to spring back toward center?

If so, then more than likely, the pivot direction is not being maintained at launch point. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It can be used to your advantage if you know it happening

Theres ways to neutralize the spring effect and maintain the pivot stroke line.

SpiderWebComm · Dec 27, 2017

I see we had some good discovery and learning experiences going on.

Keep working with this setup so you know what to expect and to be able to "own" it.
You can keep it the same way as originally setup or start moving the balls around on the table as well as separating them either closer together or farther apart. How does distance affect YOUR amount of pivot?

Post your results and findings

I'll post something either later today or tomorrow with the balls positioned on the table for aiming half way between center and edge on the OB pivoting both ways...
Center to outside or inside to center on the CB.

SpiderWebComm · Dec 27, 2017

sbordona said:
I tried your test and shot numerous shots with both little mikes aim cb to co and then pivot to 3/4 ob, and it hit just before the corner pocket. I then shot numerous shots with aiming one tip to the left of center of the cb aligning with the center of the ob and then pivoting to center of the cb, and the shot went in. So you are correct the pre-pivot shot does cut the ob more than a cb to co and then pivoting to 3/4 ob.

Any idea as to why that is? (anybody can answer if they want to give it a shot)

I tried this on my 9 foot diamond table with 4 1/4" pockets.

Whoa! That's a pretty stout table setup.

SpiderWebComm · Dec 27, 2017

paultex said:
I believe the reason the pivot shot misses thick, is because the stroke direction tends to spring back or redirects toward center cb.

I am curious, if you set up and then apply the manual pivot outward, right of center cb, does it feel like there is a torque resistance wanting to spring back toward center?

If so, then more than likely, the pivot direction is not being maintained at launch point. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It can be used to your advantage if you know it happening

Theres ways to neutralize the spring effect and maintain the pivot stroke line.

And there may in fact be other factors. Maybe less time in the "Think Tank" and more time on the table will answer it.

BC21 · Dec 27, 2017

The pre-pivot (offset pivot that ends up at ccb) provides a specific pre-loaded thinning adjustment to the natural shot angle created by the CB to OB reference point. It also sends the OB to a specific target, which is determined by the cb location and the farthest possible distance the ob can be before the pivot causes a complete whiff between cb and ob. It sounds confusing, but the exact workings of this can be can be calculated and shown on paper, then it can be tested and proven on the table.

Like in Spider's test shot..... You could place more object balls on the long centerline, keeping the cb at the head spot but increasing the distance between cb and ob each time, and if you use the same ob ref point and offset pivot for each shot you'll send the ob to the same target every time. A shorter bridge length or larger oiffset pivot really thins the angle up, and every ob will be sent toward a new target point based on the thinner angle.

SpiderWebComm · Dec 27, 2017

BC21 said:
The pre-pivot (offset pivot that ends up at ccb) provides a specific pre-loaded thinning adjustment to the natural shot angle created by the CB to OB reference point.

We have a WIENER. I mean WINNER!

Do you know what causes it or makes it happen? Please expound on what you said above.

It also sends the OB to a specific target, which is determined by the cb location and the farthest possible distance the ob can be before the pivot causes a complete whiff between cb and ob. It sounds confusing, but the exact workings of this can be can be calculated and shown on paper, then it can be tested and proven on the table.

Like in Spider's test shot..... You could place more object balls on the long centerline, keeping the cb at the head spot but increasing the distance between cb and ob each time, and if you use the same ob ref point and offset pivot for each shot you'll send the ob to the same target every time. A shorter bridge length or larger oiffset pivot really thins the angle up, and every ob will be sent toward a new target point based on the thinner angle.

I also think when using outside even though the cue is angled, there's just a hair of deflection that could thicken it. It's probably so slight it can't be measured or corroborated but it's my gut feeling. Whereas the strike to CCB is more of a pure hit. I could be wrong but I don't think it's anything more complicated or bizarre causing it.

One Pocket John · Dec 27, 2017

Training session 4 (part 1 of 2) is on YouTube.
It addresses some of the posts we have made.

John

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

paultex · Dec 27, 2017

SpiderWebComm said:
I also think when using outside even though the cue is angled, there's just a hair of deflection that could thicken it. It's probably so slight it can't be measured or corroborated but it's my gut feeling. Whereas the strike to CCB is more of a pure hit. I could be wrong but I don't think it's anything more complicated or bizarre causing it.

That's right, depending on the preshot setup that one picks up in their visuals, perception at any point, amounts to a bottom line reality, called a result. Scope + rifle = result.

You should also specify that for a left handed player, I assume should conduct this test as a cut to the right instead of left. Not sure if this is obvious because for a right handed player, a deflect inward from an outside trajectory, finally starts what I call getting on the other side of the cue ball and it's a very difficult thing to do, based on visual line combined with delivery from the right side of the body.

To say "could" or slight, is a understatement and you can rest assure that it can be corroborated. Perhaps on this particular shot you suggested, its less likely because of the shot nature and distance, but the more important thing, is it is certainly happening big time on other shot relationships of outside with a cut to the left and missing thick, which flies against a percieved outside acting as a cutter in perpetuity.

This is why I personally said I would have to think about the result first, because I know I can make either result happen if I want, but it isn't exactly easy to deflect this particular shot inward to miss thick......when you try to. It usually will miss thick when you are not trying to.

That's the part I can't explain definitively but it's what I call double crossing and it's very annoying.

Kind of like you spidey but I must admit you have been nice lately. Are you single? Wink wink wink wink

. Can you convert your pool table basement into a dungeon of delight? Is this something you would like??!!!

Lol. Happy hall days.

BC21 · Dec 27, 2017

SpiderWebComm said:
Do you know what causes it or makes it happen?

Makes what happen? The angle? What is "it"?

SpiderWebComm · Dec 27, 2017

BC21 said:
Makes what happen? The angle? What is "it"?

The pre-pivot (offset pivot that ends up at ccb) provides a specific pre-loaded thinning adjustment to the natural shot angle created by the CB to OB reference point.

Provides a pre-loaded thinning adjustment...

BC21 · Dec 27, 2017

SpiderWebComm said:
The pre-pivot (offset pivot that ends up at ccb) provides a specific pre-loaded thinning adjustment to the natural shot angle created by the CB to OB reference point.

Provides a pre-loaded thinning adjustment...

If I align my cue tip/stroke through ccb to halfway between center and edge of ob, using that 3/4 aim as a reference, I'm going to produce a shot angle near 15°. Now, if I align vs 1/2 tip offset ftom ccb to that 3/4 reference on the ob, then pivot my tip to ccb, I am no longer aiming for a 3/4 hit. It will be thinner because my alignment to the reference point on the ob had about 1 to 2 degrees of a pre-loaded angle on it. The farther the ob is from the cb, the thinner the produced shot will be using my same 1/2 tip offset pivot and same ob ref point. At some point in the distance the ob will be too far away and my 1/2 tip pivot will cause the cb to miss it entirely.

Jucas · Dec 27, 2017

SpiderWebComm said:
OK, here's a test for all of you if you want to really know what's going on with Little Mike's system or Shishkebob. I'm going to give you the NUGGETS of all NUGGETS.

It isn't my test for you. It's YOUR test for YOU to find out what all of this does or doesn't do based on the visuals and your cue. My results might not be the same as yours or yours not the same as another player You have to see what you get for YOU.

Put the CB on the head spot for all the shots. Stick a notebook reinforcement ring in the middle of the table between the two side pockets where the OB will be placed either right on it or off to the side.

I like slightly off to the side so the reinforcement doesn't affect the OB sliding off.

Make absolutely certain if you were to hit center to center with a good stroke the alignment for the two would hit the middle diamond on the foot end rail.

First shot is to aim CENTER CB to CENTER OB and PIVOT the tip of your cue OUTSIDE 1/2 way to CENTER and EDGE of the OB. Strike the shot multiple times and see where it hits on the end rail. Do this over and over to get a good idea of how the pivot affects where the OB ends up on the rail.

Then aim CENTER CB to CENTER OB and PIVOT the tip of your cue to the OUTSIDE EDGE of the OB. Do it both with the center of your tip and the inside portion of your tip to the edge.

WHERE DOES THE OB HIT THE RAIL OR GO?

Also align one tip inside on the CB to the center of the OB and pivot the tip of your cue back to the CENTER of the CB. Where does the OB go? What happens when you start one tip inside of the CB aiming to the center of the OB and pivot halfway between center and edge on the OB?

With my cue, I can make the OB go INTO THE POCKET. What do YOU GET? Personally, I get a greater cut angle when starting from the INSIDE pivoting back to center. Also keep in mind when you align from the inside your centers to center are slightly different than when you're center to center straight on. Just sayin'.

Until you get this down pat and know what is going on, we go no further. More guys than 1 or 2 need to be on board.

It's not about my game and understanding, it's yours.

I am a lurker here, but I am game to try this. I will post my results. Thanks for all the information Spider and others.

I have been experimenting with Shishkebob since Stan posted his visual version video. I really like the system.

I have also experimented with "Split the Difference", but I find an inside pivot to be much more natural.

Using either system I am still having some trouble as the distance of the shot gets longer.

Also having trouble with the angles between CCB to OB 1/4 -> and CCB to CBE -> OB edge. So thanks for the tips on the previous.

This is how I have been thinking about identifying the shots, in increasing strength of cut. Gleaning some labels for the STD video.

Straight - Aim - OB 12 O’Clock position (as per Mike’s tip in latest video)

Almost Straight - CBC to OBC -> inside offset -> Pivot CCB

Not Almost Straight - CBC to OB Opposite 1/4 -> inside offset -> Pivot CCB

Boomerang / Horizon - CBC to OBE (no pivot)

Hard Cut - CCB to OBE -> inside offset -> Pivot CCB

Harder Cut - CBE to OB Opposite 1/4 -> inside offset -> Pivot CCB

Hardest Cut - CBE to OB Opposite 1/8 -> inside offset -> Pivot CCB

Edge to Edge - CBE to OBE (no pivot - visual offset)

---

The pivot seems to me to be dependent on the distance of the shot, and I am still working that out for from feel and experience.

SpiderWebComm · Dec 27, 2017

Jucas said:
I am a lurker here, but I am game to try this. I will post my results. Thanks for all the information Spider and others.

I have been experimenting with Shishkebob since Stan posted his visual version video. I really like the system.

I have also experimented with "Split the Difference", but I find an inside pivot to be much more natural.

Using either system I am still having some trouble as the distance of the shot gets longer.

Also having trouble with the angles between CCB to OB 1/4 -> and CCB to CBE -> OB edge. So thanks for the tips on the previous.

This is how I have been thinking about identifying the shots, in increasing strength of cut. Gleaning some labels for the STD video.

Straight - Aim - OB 12 O’Clock position (as per Mike’s tip in latest video)

Almost Straight - CBC to OBC -> inside offset -> Pivot CCB

Not Almost Straight - CBC to OB Opposite 1/4 -> inside offset -> Pivot CCB

Boomerang / Horizon - CBC to OBE (no pivot)

Hard Cut - CCB to OBE -> inside offset -> Pivot CCB

Harder Cut - CBE to OB Opposite 1/4 -> inside offset -> Pivot CCB

Hardest Cut - CBE to OB Opposite 1/8 -> inside offset -> Pivot CCB

Edge to Edge - CBE to OBE (no pivot - visual offset)

---

The pivot seems to me to be dependent on the distance of the shot, and I am still working that out for from feel and experience.

Glad this thread motivated you from being a lurker to a participant and you want to learn.

Looks like you have a decent grasp of what's going on and how to do it. Although I've always said on here starting from an inside offset and pivoting back to CCB is the stronger way to go, I'd like to see you become more proficient with CCB to COB and then pivot to the outside just so you can have both in your arsenal. As well as CCB to 1/4 OB and pivot; or CCB to OBE without pivot and WITH pivot for harder cuts.

I posted this earlier in the thread. Set the balls up as it's described for BOTH right and left cuts and BOTH PIVOTS. If any of it is confusing, let me know and I'll explain.

These are NOT difficult cuts but it will give you the visuals and feel for both right and left cut shots. DISTANCE will come into play. Figure out what you have to do to prevent either an overcut or undercut and let us know:

Try doing what I do by lining up center to center and then pivot to outside, but start with SHALLOW cuts.

Put the CB on the middle diamond on the side rail of the head side two balls away from the rail.

Put the OB the same distance (two balls away from the rail) but the next diamond down toward the center pocket. You'll be shooting these balls into the corner pocket on the same side. Do it for a right cut and also for a left cut on the other side of the table.

Line up center to center like you're going to hit it directly into the end rail to miss the corner pocket. Then pivot about 1/4 to 1/2 tip to the OUTSIDE and then stroke.
I don't know whether 1/4 tip will do it or 1/2 tip will based on your cue.

You should be able to make the shot over and over and over without missing in both directions to the corner pocket.

When you get dialed in, keep the CB at the same place on the table but move the OB down even with the side pocket; then move the OB two balls away from the first diamond beyond the pocket; then to the middle diamond past the pocket; and then to the last diamond near the corner pocket on both sides of the table.

If you pivot beyond the 1/4 or 1/2 tip and go to the 1/4 BALL position of the OB, you'll be overcutting it and will hit the side rail in front of the pocket.

Get this down pat and we'll move to other positions next.

Jucas · Dec 27, 2017

SpiderWebComm said:
Glad this thread motivated you from being a lurker to a participant and you want to learn.

Looks like you have a decent grasp of what's going on and how to do it. Although I've always said on here starting from an inside offset and pivoting back to CCB is the stronger way to go, I'd like to see you become more proficient with CCB to COB and then pivot to the outside just so you can have both in your arsenal. As well as CCB to 1/4 OB and pivot; or CCB to OBE without pivot and WITH pivot for harder cuts.

I posted this earlier in the thread. Set the balls up as it's described for BOTH right and left cuts and BOTH PIVOTS. If any of it is confusing, let me know and I'll explain.

These are NOT difficult cuts but it will give you the visuals and feel for both right and left cut shots. DISTANCE will come into play. Figure out what you have to do to prevent either an overcut or undercut and let us know:

Try doing what I do by lining up center to center and then pivot to outside, but start with SHALLOW cuts.

Put the CB on the middle diamond on the side rail of the head side two balls away from the rail.

Put the OB the same distance (two balls away from the rail) but the next diamond down toward the center pocket. You'll be shooting these balls into the corner pocket on the same side. Do it for a right cut and also for a left cut on the other side of the table.

Line up center to center like you're going to hit it directly into the end rail to miss the corner pocket. Then pivot about 1/4 to 1/2 tip to the OUTSIDE and then stroke.
I don't know whether 1/4 tip will do it or 1/2 tip will based on your cue.

You should be able to make the shot over and over and over without missing in both directions to the corner pocket.

When you get dialed in, keep the CB at the same place on the table but move the OB down even with the side pocket; then move the OB two balls away from the first diamond beyond the pocket; then to the middle diamond past the pocket; and then to the last diamond near the corner pocket on both sides of the table.

If you pivot beyond the 1/4 or 1/2 tip and go to the 1/4 BALL position of the OB, you'll be overcutting it and will hit the side rail in front of the pocket.

Get this down pat and we'll move to other positions next.

Thanks for that will give it a go.

Would this be a beneficial exercise if you set-up offset, to the inside, and pivoted CB? Or just outside?

SpiderWebComm · Dec 27, 2017

Jucas said:
Thanks for that will give it a go.

Would this be a beneficial exercise if you set-up offset, to the inside, and pivoted CB? Or just outside?

Absolutely both pivots, inside to center and center to outside as well as for right cuts into the corner pocket and left cuts into the other corner pocket.

SpiderWebComm · Dec 27, 2017

BC21 said:
If I align my cue tip/stroke through ccb to halfway between center and edge of ob, using that 3/4 aim as a reference, I'm going to produce a shot angle near 15°. Now, if I align vs 1/2 tip offset ftom ccb to that 3/4 reference on the ob, then pivot my tip to ccb, I am no longer aiming for a 3/4 hit. It will be thinner because my alignment to the reference point on the ob had about 1 to 2 degrees of a pre-loaded angle on it. The farther the ob is from the cb, the thinner the produced shot will be using my same 1/2 tip offset pivot and same ob ref point. At some point in the distance the ob will be too far away and my 1/2 tip pivot will cause the cb to miss it entirely.

OK. And what happens if you have a full tip offset on the inside of the CB either halfway between center and edge OR to EDGE. What will happen? (you know and I know but I just want someone else to say it)

One Pocket John · Dec 27, 2017

One Pocket John said:
Training session 4 (part 1 of 2) is on YouTube.
It addresses some of the posts we have made.

John

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Training Session 4 (Part 1 of 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mRB5BktSmo

Hope this helps to explain types of pivots that are open for use. I pivot my body to the correct percentage point not just the cue. It's a very, very small movement.

Training Session 4 (Part 2 of 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u2qC1oNraQ

This really helped me with jumping hope it helps others.

John

BC21 · Dec 27, 2017

One Pocket John said:
Training Session 4 (Part 1 of 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mRB5BktSmo

Hope this helps to explain types of pivots that are open for use. I pivot my body to the correct percentage point not just the cue. It's a very, very small movement.

Training Session 4 (Part 2 of 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u2qC1oNraQ

This really helped me with jumping hope it helps others.

John

I give Mike a super big thumbs up for his attitude! Very cool guy. But I really don't understand this teaching method. He says he only spins balls when needed, yet this contradicts the video where he specifically lines ccb to ob reference point then pivots the cue away from ccb and shoots. So is he using straight fractional aim points/alignments or is he pivoting? If he's using straight ccb alignments then he'd only have 4 shot angles to work with -- straight, 3/4 (Std between center ob and edge), 5/8 (StD between 3/4 ob and edge), and the horizon (ob edge, or 1/2 ball hit).

Excellent jump advice. Hand loose or off of cue when cue strikes ob. The lighter the cue the better. Good stuff.

One Pocket John · Dec 28, 2017

BC21 said:
I give Mike a super big thumbs up for his attitude! Very cool guy. But I really don't understand this teaching method. He says he only spins balls when needed, yet this contradicts the video where he specifically lines ccb to ob reference point then pivots the cue away from ccb and shoots. So is he using straight fractional aim points/alignments or is he pivoting? If he's using straight ccb alignments then he'd only have 4 shot angles to work with -- straight, 3/4 (Std between center ob and edge), 5/8 (StD between 3/4 ob and edge), and the horizon (ob edge, or 1/2 ball hit).

Excellent jump advice. Hand loose or off of cue when cue strikes ob. The lighter the cue the better. Good stuff.

GM Brian.

I think you may have missed the different ways to pivot from CCB to a % on the OB as he demonstrates.
What Mike does, as I saw it, when he pulls his cue back from CCB he shifts his body to the left (a very small movement) and then delivers the cue to the % point on the OB hitting center CB.

He also demonstrated how he applies spin to the CB if needed. Which he does in fact move the cue off center of the CB. (like the Filipino's use)

I use parallel spin but always keep one side or the other of my cue shaft on the center line of the CB. Unless of course I want to hit a slow shot but need a ton of spin on the CB, then I use Mike's method.

A slow motion sampling of the video would answer a ton of questions we all have on his method.

Edit. I posted this on comments of Training Session 4 (part 1)
:Hey Ken, would it be possible to show Mike's pivot and stroke from center cue ball to a center % on the object ball from start to finish in Slow-Motion. Thanks for your and Mike's work.

John

BC21 · Dec 28, 2017

One Pocket John said:
GM Brian.

I think you may have missed the different ways to pivot from CCB to a % on the OB as he demonstrates.
What Mike does, as I saw it, when he pulls his cue back from CCB he shifts his body to the left (a very small movement) and then delivers the cue to the % point on the OB hitting center CB.

He also demonstrated how he applies spin to the CB if needed. Which he does in fact move the cue off center of the CB. (like the Filipino's use)

I use parallel spin but always keep one side or the other of my cue shaft on the center line of the CB. Unless of course I want to hit a slow shot but need a ton of spin on the CB, then I use Mike's method.

A slow motion sampling of the video would answer a ton of questions we all have on his method.

John

I noticed the body shift. He is realigning to a new aim point on the OB, not pivoting from point A to point B. So he just looking at his reference line, either center-to-center or 3/4 depending on the shot angle, then choosing to aim halfway between that reference and a half ball aim. But not every cut shot between straight in and 30° can be pocketed with just two aim points unless the ob is only a few inches out of the pocket. Nevertheless, it's nothing like shiskabob if the guy isn't pivoting.

It appears to be, as Dan White pointed out, a method of teaching beginners how to aim using the face of the OB and three or four aim points. Eventually you begin to recognize when "splitting the difference" is too thin or too thick, and you adjust as needed. This puts StD in the fractional system category, a wastered down version of the basic quarters system, where instead of guessing the fractional aim you base it on a couple of reference aim lines. It appears to be helping people learn, and little Mike seems sincere with that goal, so...:thumbup: for him and his student(s).

Splitting The Difference Aiming System

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