..he naively asked, so long ago
Mr 600
- Thread starter billlaur
- Start date
..he naively asked, so long ago
I really need to dissent on something that keeps being mentioned in this thread.
For what it's worth, I don't think "all ball fouls" can be assumed to be in effect for John's run. This was not a competitive run, but instead an exhibition run. I do not believe there is a rulebook that pertains to exhibitions, and I don't agree with the assumption that the same rules apply as would in competition. Who is to say whether Mosconi adhered to the "all ball fouls" rule when he did exhibitions? Obviously, we'll never know for sure, but my guess is that he didn't. If anyone on the AZB forum ever saw a Mosconi exhibition run end due to a foul on an object ball, please chime in.
I don't think any of us have the right to demand that "all ball fouls" be adhered to in an exhibition run. Who is to say whether the BCA applied this standard in its review of John's run? If the released video shows John's shirt ever so slightly grazing an object ball, I, for one, will not view it as a foul, while it's clear that many others who've posted in this thread will.
For what it's worth, I don't think "all ball fouls" can be assumed to be in effect for John's run. This was not a competitive run, but instead an exhibition run. I do not believe there is a rulebook that pertains to exhibitions, and I don't agree with the assumption that the same rules apply as would in competition. Who is to say whether Mosconi adhered to the "all ball fouls" rule when he did exhibitions? Obviously, we'll never know for sure, but my guess is that he didn't. If anyone on the AZB forum ever saw a Mosconi exhibition run end due to a foul on an object ball, please chime in.
I don't think any of us have the right to demand that "all ball fouls" be adhered to in an exhibition run. Who is to say whether the BCA applied this standard in its review of John's run? If the released video shows John's shirt ever so slightly grazing an object ball, I, for one, will not view it as a foul, while it's clear that many others who've posted in this thread will.
Last edited:
Interesting question Stu. I must have watched a dozen or more of Willie's exhibitions and played him in one. I can't remember ever seeing him foul a ball. He had such good control of his body, he never seemed awkward or uncomfortable over a shot. He was just as careful when playing an exhibition as he would be playing in a world championship! He wanted to make that clean 100 ball run every time and I never heard about him failing, except for the rare match that he lost. That did happen a few times in his long career. He probably had a better record than the Globetrotters.
Remember what Lou Butera said, "Pool is a game of stances and bridges."
Last edited:
Interesting question Stu. I must have watched a dozen or more of Willie's exhibitions and played him in one. I can't remember ever seeing him foul a ball. He had such good control of his body, he never seemed awkward or uncomfortable over a shot. He was just as careful when playing an exhibition as he would be playing in a world championship! He wanted to make that clean 100 ball run every time and I never heard about him failing, except for the rare match that he lost. That did happen a few times in his long career. He probably had a better record than the Globetrotters.
Remember what Lou Butera said, "Pool is a game of stances and bridges."
Sorry for being argumentative here, Jay, but whether he did or didn't ever commit an object ball foul is not the point. The question is whether the rule was in effect.
I've seen dozens of these minor fouls in straight pool over the years, and among the perpetrators were Irving Crane, Dan Diliberto, and Pete Margo. I've seen a pro commit a foul during the world 14.1 championships because his clip-on bow tie fell off and landed on a ball. Another lost his turn in the world championships when his cufflink came loose and moved an object ball ever so slightly. Unintended fouls happen, even to the very best, and in competition, we know that all of them are called.
I saw Mosconi just once and that was at Julian's on 14th Street in Manhattan in what I believe to have been the late 1970's His match was not refereed and every indication to me was that the rules were not being enforced strictly - still doesn't mean he wasn't playing all ball fouls, but I have my doubts.
Back on Dec. 3, 2018, John ran a 434 at Easy Street. It was his career-high run and apparently the highest run ever captured on video to that point. It's the run that ended with the weird massé-like turn of the cue ball into a pocket at the head of the table. Nearly 2 months later, someone posted on AzB that his friend had watched the video and noticed a ball wobble slightly when John was getting down for a shot. Posts ensued declaring the 434 invalid. (The wobble occurred as John was preparing to shoot ball number 102.)
When John moved on to Bull Shooters in March and April, 2019, the runs were being live streamed, and the streaming "notes" on screen explicitly said that John was playing cue ball fouls only. I imagine that was also John's intent when he was back at Easy Street in May, where he ran the 626.
Whether the 626 had any such object-ball touches or movements, we do not know. What we do know is that John said he "proof watched" the video, confirming the 626, and that two BCA representatives also watched the video and confirmed the run.
Wow, some great info there. Thanks, AtLarge, for sharing.
Ha. I still remember the rec center as a kid we had the rule where if the cue ball was on the rail you could stand the butt of your cue up against the rail and move the cue ball out to the other side of your cue butt. We should all go back to that...but then think how fat cue butts would get Lol.
Up here, we called t hose YMCA rules.
Not only cue ball width of a butt off the rail....
...if you fouled whitey and it didn’t go six inches...you could put it back.
Mosconi was competing during pool's golden era.
The events were held in the finest hotels and clubs in the world. There were refs and the players wore tuxedos. I believe one could reasonably say it was a time when the game had more prestige and was taken far more seriously, with the results of big tournaments front page news, than today. This was the milieu Mosconi grew up and competed in. All ball fouls was not a big thing to him and players of his era.
On the occasions I saw him play he was always in coat and tie. And -- as you would expect during a 100 ball run -- he'd often have to lean out over the table to reach a shot. He'd always take a moment to button his sports coat to ensure he did not foul a ball. So basically I'm saying it is reasonable to figure he always shot all ball fouls.
Of course nowadays you have guys that are accustomed to CB fouls only and who play in T-shirts and shorts.
But in any case, no one is "demanding" anything -- it would just be interesting to know the circumstances and particulars of the run because in my mind there are runs... and then there are runs. One run consists of a guy walking into a strange room, taking a couple of warm up racks, and then setting a world record witnessed by many. The other run consists of a guy playing on the same table for weeks on end, with every possible detail tailored to favor a high run, and then releasing an edited video.
So the BCA has certified it. OK, but that doesn't mean there can't be some examination of the particulars so we can all individually make up our own minds as to what kind of run it was.
Lou Figueroa
Attachments
Last edited:
I'll play you some if you spot me the breaks and a fat butt.
Lord, that just does not sound right.
Rules, what rules? He was there to run 100 balls and the people came to see just that. I never remember any discussion of rules prior to him playing. My recollection is that he DID adhere to the rules and was very careful not to touch any ball. Remember he was a perfectionist, and I firmly believe that if he had fouled (even by accident) he would have called it on himself.
Other than that Stu, it will be a little hard to go back in time and find out now if he was playing by the Marquess of Queensbury rules or any others. Unless you have a time machine buried somewhere in your back yard.
You also might want to take a look at all the video of Mosconi that is out there. Let me know if you see him foul a ball anywhere. I'm betting the answer is no.
Good point Lou. I also remember him buttoning up to shoot over balls. Even rolling up his sleeve if necessary. So he was very conscious of making sure his run was clean, with no fouls.
Nah, I think I need a spot from you...but looking back on it we might have played already in a tournament when I was in your area about 15 years ago.
Thanks to Lou and Jay here on the history lesson. Although I've sweated pro pool since about 1966, I sometimes forget that some forum members have been around quite a bit longer than me. In context, based on what you've shared, it's obvious Willie held himself to the standard of all ball fouls even during exhibitions.
I'm not sure this means that John was required to do the same, though. I'd be interested to learn what criteria the BCA applied in the process of reviewing and validating John's run.
I'm not sure this means that John was required to do the same, though. I'd be interested to learn what criteria the BCA applied in the process of reviewing and validating John's run.
Here's one -- at the very end of this clip from an exhibition with Caras in 1991: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIE5AOayYvI
[the rules have an old-age exemption above age 75, right?]
Very interesting. This clip is of the old, and within two years of death, Mosconi. It does show that the rules are sometimes bent during an exhibition, but I'm still not sure what to make of it.
I saw Mosconi play when he was about 66, which was still over twenty years after he suffered the stroke that shortened his career and, more than likely, his life. Once again, though, I'll defer to those who were around Willie a lot as far as interpreting this.
… but the myth that the top pros always held themselves to the same rules during exhibitions as the ones they adhered to in major tournaments is busted.
What a discussion. I bet there is no other written record of such things.
Wow, nice catch there! This must have been during one of the dinner shows put on by the Birbeck twins. There was no money involved in those shows, but people did pay to see them play. A pretty embarrassing moment for Mosconi I would think. If there was anything on the line I'm damn sure Caras would have called him on it. The video ends at that point and I'm left to wonder what happened. Maybe he did get called on it after all. Who knows.
As Willie aged, his skills, his memory and his discipline diminished rapidly. At this point in his career he may have had a few moments like this. Toward the end, he asked me that if he started to shoot a trick shot for the second time to tell him so he could stop. I witnessed some of his last exhibitions in California in the early 1990's.
Last edited:
Nice try! Give me a fat butt, or I ain't playin!
And give the possibility we've met and played...I feel less bad about not hooking up with you when you were in my zone a couplea years ago.
What kind of dumb shit are you talking about now!?
Enter what was the hi run standard when Willie did it?
And to claim a record cannot be beaten...huh?
Enter what was the hi run standard when Willie did it?
And to claim a record cannot be beaten...huh?