My view of the financial viability of pool halls, and what has to change.

I've been playing with various things to do in my retirement. I have a wide range of skills from business, as well as some hobbies. Pool has been one of the hobbies, mainly from years ago, but now I have time to play again if I wish, and some of the knowledge needed to look into a pool hall as a business.

I've asked in this forum before on what it would take to have a shot at a financially successful new pool room. I've gotten very solid responses, and thanks to the experienced people who have shared their knowledge and ideas. Things like:
- No waitstaff, one person serves and runs everything at the counter.
- Only canned and bottled beverages (and count the empties against the receipts) - no draft beer, no mixing drinks. You could provide miniatures and set-ups, I guess.
- Vending service for snacks and music, and whatever big screen TV arrangements are needed - but they are needed.
- Try to lock in multiple league nights.
- Poker table tops or folding tables for poker tournaments, if local demand can be created (check city ordinances)
- Enough darts lanes for league play, if local demand can be created, and maybe some dart supplies in a case if that business is good. (But I have read the caution that pool players and darts players tend to not mix well, the darts players being more rowdy, or more sociable, depending upon your point of view.

I would like to work on increasing the revenue from pool play as a component of total revenue. I also think that, even given best practice, opening a pool room today is far from what I believe pool players refer to as a lock.

I know many pool rooms are successful today and have been for years - they have to be doing a large number of things well. The following is about what I think would be needed now and in the future (in addition to the assumed good management, league attraction, etc) to increase the number of sustainable pool rooms. To some I imagine it will sound like "read em and weep" and some will find it outlandish, absurd. Nevertheless...

We can start from a typical strip mall lease, where 1000-1200 sqft per unit is available. We then say we want to be able to potentially put a pool room next to every Schlotsky's or Subway or Papa John's/Domino's, and have it work financially. What does that take?

If you put 7' tables in a room, and even fudge to allow that all space around each table (5' per side) is shared by tables, it takes over 100 sqft per table to play. That's too much space to be able to charge what is needed to be viable as a business renting that space and equipment.

In comparison, you only need about 40 sqft for darts play.

The standard answer here at azbilliards, and I agree, is you have to sell other stuff; alcohol, primarily. So what you have is a bar (the primary source of revenue) that attracts people who like to play pool and drink. I'd like to try to avoid that path, at least as a planning exercise to see what changes would be required. Clearly the floor space per game has to be much reduced.

I looked into British pub pool tables, like the popular Supreme Winner and some nicer and more expensive SAM tables. (I've read that pool is in decline over there, giving caution to following this way blindly.) Tournaments are played on 7' tables, but 6' tables are very common. These tables use snooker pockets (approximate in shape and size, 3.25-3.5") and 2" balls (instead of the US 2.25" or snooker's 2.125").

These smaller tables have positive attributes:
+1 they take less floor space
+2 they continue the move towards equalizing play between people who tend to be shorter (women and younger people) and taller (men). This is positive since it may help attract more women players and another generation of players. This could be a small contribution to a huge change.
+3 they still allow for a game of variable difficulty, since smaller pockets can (and are) used to keep the game at an "interesting" level, and pocket size (and ball size) can be chosen to set how hard you want play to be.
+4 the availability of smaller balls (both pool and snooker) allows games with many balls (like snooker (albeit with 10 reds) and 8-ball) to still be played on these tables.
+5 6' tables as a commercial standard would, if successful, help legitimize the home convertible dining-pool table, for homes with a dining room (perhaps 15'x12', not unusual in the US) but no dedicated pool room. I imagine this may be an attractive tradeoff or compromise for an increased number of spouses (of both sexes) compared to today.

On the down side:
-1. The inevitable massive resistance from those who prefer larger tables.
-2. The floor space requirement is not sufficiently reduced by the reduction of table size, saving only 6.5 sqft, or about 7%. We have to reduce the space between tables to make real progress.

Smaller tables and closer spacing means the cues can and should be shorter so they don't punch out or swing over adjacent tables. I would expect a lot of resistance among people owning their own cues.

We keep things simple, and pick table spacing of 4.5' (54") instead of 5', and put out 52" house cues. That gets us down to about 80 sqft per game, so a 20% improvement over 7' tables with 5' between them.

I bet a lot of rooms actually already space their 7' bar boxes about 4' apart and let the players sort out the use of their 58" cues in the confined space. That also gives you about 80 sqft per game.

Trying 4' between 6' tables gets us down to 70 sqft. That's 30% more tables, potentially, given the right room dimensions, and I would say a significant improvement, and as far as I can imagine pushing it - but not a true game-changer.

I think there is no need to contemplate tables smaller than 6'. There's just not anything to gain in increased floor space.

I'd also try raising the table height slightly, to 32"-34", with the thought it would be a disadvantage to few, may make the smaller area around the playing surface more tolerable for larger people, and would ease the back strain of older players a bit.

If those changes aren't enough (!), the only other thing I can think of is to create (or re-create) cue sports games where players only use one or two ends of the table. This could potentially help a great deal. For chess, opposing players sit opposite each other; perhaps pool games like this exist or could be popularized? Then the tables can be put with only about two feet between them on the non-playing sides. Or, in the extreme, all players play from one end of the table only, like darts, but no walking back and forth - we have ball returns for that. Then the tables could be placed against a wall, saving even more space. These thoughts seem radical to me, but popular games along these lines could make pool rooms much more financially viable, and much less dependent on the sale of alcohol to survive or prosper.

I would need to work on a layout based on 80-85 sqft / table in specific 1000-1200 sqft spaces to get a clearer idea of how well it would work out. First guess would be 10-12 tables -two rows of 5 or 6 running from front to back in the store. Counter, restroom, and storage area in back.

It still feels like a trout swimming upstream, though.

Is parking on league nights or tournament times an issue for anyone?

Lee

Gutshot, I agree completely, except I think if they are playing on 8' and 9' tables, they better be thirsty or you won't be open long. You can't charge enough for table rates to pay the bills. I'd like to balance things out more.

Pool has to become more social. Leagues are a huge part of any future growth, and you have to get new players in the rooms. To me, these new players are young people and women, and they will increase the social aspect just by inclusion. And pool (the growing, financially successful part) has to become perceived as a wholesome pastime, played in safe environments for women and 13-year-olds.

The first principle I understood when I converted from being a techie to businessman was that rule number one was to be a company or business participating in a growing industry. Everything is much easier because growth in the industry helps each business so much. Growth is what investors look for, it's what advertisers look for. It is usually the dominating factor. And that's what pool is the US is not, and that's why I compare it to trout swimming upstream.

I think an evening-and-weekend business has to reduce the playing floorspace to be attractive to the money people, to be more competitive with other entertainment room alternatives (which aren't exactly in huge growth phases either). "Sports bars", which are usually mainly "watch TV while drinking and maybe eating" may be the closest thing to something you could today make into a regional or national chain.

BTW, that's one solid indicator that there is money to be made, in general, with a business. It can be repeated, it can be franchised, since it isn't dependent on extraordinary efforts or unique circumstances to work. All the pieces have to fit together. How many successful national pool room chains are there? If there aren't any, that means the basic business model has to change.

One big benefit would be if there was one overarching effective organization, like the USGA for golf. There can be different leagues, but the rules of play should be the same. There has to be some cooperation among leagues at the top, so everyone can benefit. Today I think the situation is different.

Most colleges should be able to scrape together some sort of pool program, if given industry encouragement, guidance, and support. Current status is very variable, school by school, and overall too weak.

Top amateurs in an area could be able to compete as clubs against clubs from other areas.

As far as I'm concerned, 8-ball is (or can be) a sustainably popular game, and so can 10-ball. I think 9-ball is broken enough that it should be replaced by 10-ball. Both 8-ball and 10-ball should also have shorter, similar games, so less skilled players have a chance to run out now and then, and faster games are played at the lower levels. Those are two-player games. There also needs to be more emphasis on popular 3 and 4 player games so there can be more interaction among teammates during games, instead of just against the opponent.

Then there's the obvious need for a "Pro Tour", with the money and skills behind it to attract at least some TV coverage ( = able to attract a fan base). What the TV thing does, baseline, is bring in money to the sport. If it was me, I would probably try a Pro Tour with a number of "co-ed" events, on tight 7 ft tables, since I think that would get a lot of media attention, especially as the females have success. No other game/sport that I know of has consistent mixed-sex competition at pro level.

Add another possibility: the equivalent of the Ryder Cup and the President's Cup. Again, this would be set up for TV.

What pool players (and league operators) need to do, as a whole, is identify what industry leaders are trying to grow the pot, and which ones are squabbling over splitting over the remaining crumbs on the floor right now. And then put all their $upport towards the ones who are trying to grow the industry in a healthy direction, and abandon the losers who are only out for what they can get.

Where are one pocket and straight pool players in this? At home, playing with their friends on large tables. Or, in the pool hall, if they'll pay the $20/hr or more, since they tend to not drink or eat anything, that is needed for a room to provide 9' tables at a rate that makes the large tables pull their own weight in revenue.

But I have no influence over all these big things. So I'm just trying to figure out how to shift the balance away from alcohol revenue being the main component needed to survive for one pool room. Not that I have a problem with enjoying a refreshing beverage - don't misunderstand.

Lee

i8ap4t, I hear you. What I'd say:

I'm uncomfortable with the downsizing too - not so much of the tables, since even a 6 foot table could be a beast to play on, just as a 9' table can be unchallenging. But with the player space, I dunno. That uneasiness is why I left my baseline at 80-85 sqft per table instead of 70. Since it makes so much difference in revenue, I think it has to be tried. It's worth checking around to see how much space owners actually do give players today. We have 58" cues, and can get a good idea from checking distance between tables using them. And maybe room owners here will speak up.

Of the two examples you gave, one business is subsidizing pool by taking money from the machines - same as the alcohol example I've been using. I want to see if there is some way pool can stand more on its own. Sure, still provide refreshments, snacks, music, and TV.

In your second example, I can't understand how the place in Korea is making any money off that floor.

I'm looking at the slab for a new small strip mall with a chain sandwich shop going in, just a few blocks from my house, on a major road, and they are looking for more tenants, and another strip mall 2 miles away where there's a Target anchor store, a Subway sandwich shop that's doing well, and 1000-1200 sqft available next to it. This is in a suburb of 40,000 people, growing steadily, and a grand total of two pool tables in one bar inside the city limits, as far as I know.

People will pay $10 to sit in a crowd and watch a 2-hr movie. You'll likely drop more than that playing any arcade game for that long.

What I fear is that pool simply isn't competitive with most other forms of entertainment these days, and can't be made so. The experience isn't worth what it costs to provide, for enough people, to make it work.

Lee

i8ap4t said:

The point of the example was to show a business model based on creating and upkeeping a loyal following, rather than focusing on the walkup crowd which it sounded like you were going after.

I feel like owning a hall is more about keeping the game alive, and keeping yourself happy by being surrounded by something you love.
IMO there is no point in selling out, going for cheaper cues, and smaller table to make more money, because you cannot make big money with pool anyway.

Click to expand...

I think it would be great to have at least half the tables taken every weekday night by league play, and during the day on weekends. I would hope to make the place attractive enough to people in general to be able to fill it up on Friday and Saturday nights. Such a business would have to depend on regulars.

I suggested the location and size of room based on comments here about a kitchen. I don't want a kitchen, so being next door to one or more places to eat could be good.

I would guess the three rooms I play in most are each around 3000 sqft. They all have 15-20 8 foot tables or so, with two of them having a few 9's. One of them has coin-op bar boxes on one side of the room, maybe 8 of them. I don't know if they are 6.5' or 7' tables.

I have no interest in making big money. I tried in my first post to say I think opening a room now is rarely going to be a good idea, from a business point of view - almost anything else is more likely to make money. Keeping the doors open for a decade may be a reasonable goal.

I think having a "League Room" designed for organized play, set up for making it easy and fun to run and play in leagues, might be the best way to go.

I wonder if any of the league HQs has ever given any guidance to room owners on the subject?

Paul Dayton said:

I assume your post was satire. Pretty much all your thoughts are recipies for disaster. Too small tables in cramped spaces with no food or bar. That ought to do it. It won't take long.

Click to expand...

There are what, you pick the number, 5 pool rooms closing for every one that opens? 10? 3? It's been going on for many years. Does that sound to you like something other than disaster?

Something, maybe many things, need to change.

The alternative, of course, what has been and is happening, is that owners keep the food and bar and ditch the pool tables entirely, or just close.

The Arlington TX Fox & Hound used to have well over a dozen nice new tables. I was there last night - they are down to 2 9' old Diamonds, probably the last two left from the several they had when they opened, four (I think, they were on the other side) 8's of unknown origin, and a ping-pong table where two 9' Diamonds belonged. The rest of the former pool table space has been replaced by dining tables and more TVs on the walls. Three of the 6 tables were unused during the Friday night 8:30-10:30 (prime time) I was there playing.

Brunswick mainly sells home tables, and Olhausen has completely converted to being a home game-room manufacturer. Then there are all the $1400 Chinese Craigslist home tables.

It appears Diamond (and Valley-Dynamo, in their way) are doing what they can to move pool towards 7' tables and league play. I assume that is their view of the most sustainable mainstream financial future for pool rooms that is currently acceptable to (enough) current players, and therefore in their best interest. I have doubts they go far enough. 200 sqft = two 7' tables, or 5 darts lanes, or 20 video games. Do the math - if you need to keep the place open, pool is a comparatively poor source of income. This is not news.

As for small tables, I indeed would like to own one of those British pub tables. I think it would be a challenging variation, and see nothing wrong with it at all.

Mr. Davis,

Thanks for the thoughtful and spot-on comments based on your successful experience. I wish your place was in Fort Worth - I would be a regular. I've read your posts in another thread, about your coming retirement, and developed a sense of respect for what you (and your wife, I think) have built. I wish you the best of luck.

On your point 1: Maybe females (in sizeable numbers, I know we have some females on AZB that are much better than I am) can't be attracted to playing pool. I'd really like to have a place where people of all ages and both sexes could (and would) play and enjoy themselves. I guess it is very unlikely.

On points 2 and 6: may I ask, if food is 40-45% of sales, about what % is alcohol, and what is from playing, what is from whatever else?

Thanks again,
Lee

jgdwvu11 said:

3-you must have the best equipment- diamonds tables...7 and 9ft tables so you can have a variety of leagues and tournaments on both tables and accommodate 48-64 players.

Click to expand...

You say 48-64 players. Why is that a requirement for league or tournament play? How many tables does that equal in your mind? And I'm also concerned about the amount of available parking space for that many people.

I did a couple rough layouts, and it takes 1800 sqft or so of a space approximately square to fit either 8 7' tables (two rows of 4 side by side) or 9 tables (3 rows of 3 end to end), depending on the exact shape of the space.

Five feet all around every table, as, um, requested A "7 foot table" is about 4'6" wide and almost 8' long, as far as floor space goes. Space for a small storage room off the counter aisle, with coolers and cases lined up behind the counter. Two restrooms, with a service entrance at the back.

So my original estimate of 100 sqft per table was wildly optimistic. It's about double that when you plan for an actual space and allow for the wanted room around the tables. By my reckoning, anyway.

Not having owned a room, I can only guess that 8-9 tables wouldn't come close to overloading one honest, diligent person, who need neither cook nor be mixing drinks, only serving from the counter, and taking care of the tables and equipment, as well as the customers.

Having done that exercise, I can see the temptation, keeping the "overhead" the same, of getting enough space for 12 tables, 3 rows of 4, whichever way they best fit. 2400 sqft would do. A lease for that much space in a prime location would be quite a commitment, unless I could find a bargain.

My original thought of using a standard strip space of about 25x40 would only accommodate 4 tables - enough for a club of friends, but hardly a business.

My son has demanded tables that can be "swiped" with a debit or credit card, instead of feeding coins or bills to play, for either per-game or hourly rates. He says not many people of his generation carry actual money around. I think such a table does not exist. Anyone know of such?

7 ' tables: two rough layouts

I have listened to the advice about tables no smaller than 7' and truly providing (as many rooms don't today) 5' of free space around each table.

It seems strip malls are commonly built to standard depths, 40' and 50' being common.

The 11 table layout fits in a 40' deep strip location and is about 1800 sqft.

The 14 table layout fits a 50' deep strip location and is about 2250 sqft.

License cost and complexity of application here differ vastly between beer and mixed beverage. An on-premises beer license isn't expensive, but a full liquor license is $6,000 up front and $15,000 over 4 years in fees alone. And there is greatly increased scrutiny. For a small business, that's a lot. For that and other reasons, I'd rather avoid it.

Now that I've backed off from "crazy" (I prefer "deranged", any comments about the room size or layout?